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[Holy] Consolidated comments on Holy changes for 3.1

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Postby Sharlos » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:32 am

I 2v2 with a lock atm and I'm not sure how I feel about the change. In 2v2 it's a pretty small nerf, after we hit around 2k rating I found myself using FoL/HS almost exclusively. In the larger formats it is definetly a nerf but I have no idea what pally representation is like there. But a lot of the nerfs paladins got in terms of arena are offset by the aura mastery change. So I have no idea what blizz is aiming for.



As for the previous disscusion about differing pvp and pve, how would you suggest a change like the one to IoL to possibly occur instead?

Small rules like CC durations, and long cooldowns not being useable (LoH) I have no problem with, but I wouldn't want to see an ability doing wildly different things just because I'm suddenly fighting another player.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:59 am

I 2v2 with a lock atm and I'm not sure how I feel about the change. In 2v2 it's a pretty small nerf, after we hit around 2k rating I found myself using FoL/HS almost exclusively. In the larger formats it is definetly a nerf but I have no idea what pally representation is like there. But a lot of the nerfs paladins got in terms of arena are offset by the aura mastery change. So I have no idea what blizz is aiming for.

I find myself rarely if ever using holy light. Strange world.
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Postby Sharlos » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:16 am

Elsie wrote:
I 2v2 with a lock atm and I'm not sure how I feel about the change. In 2v2 it's a pretty small nerf, after we hit around 2k rating I found myself using FoL/HS almost exclusively. In the larger formats it is definetly a nerf but I have no idea what pally representation is like there. But a lot of the nerfs paladins got in terms of arena are offset by the aura mastery change. So I have no idea what blizz is aiming for.

I find myself rarely if ever using holy light. Strange world.


That's why the IoL change annoys me the most, it makes little difference in PvP, and I can't imagine what's so over powered about it in PvE. Seems like a nerf to fun if anything.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:34 am

Sharlos wrote:
Elsie wrote:
I 2v2 with a lock atm and I'm not sure how I feel about the change. In 2v2 it's a pretty small nerf, after we hit around 2k rating I found myself using FoL/HS almost exclusively. In the larger formats it is definetly a nerf but I have no idea what pally representation is like there. But a lot of the nerfs paladins got in terms of arena are offset by the aura mastery change. So I have no idea what blizz is aiming for.

I find myself rarely if ever using holy light. Strange world.


That's why the IoL change annoys me the most, it makes little difference in PvP, and I can't imagine what's so over powered about it in PvE. Seems like a nerf to fun if anything.

Well, in 3v3 it's nice if you have bloodlust, and in 2v2 it can be good, but usually only with an IoL proc. I also don't spec into 0.5s off holy light... so that may be why. I find bacon + soul link to be pretty sufficient (and hand of sacrifice when it isn't.. and divine guardian... and bop).
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Postby Mendin » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:00 pm

Make Enlightned Judgement takes out the gcd.

If this is OP for PvP make it decreases judgement damage for 50%.

This way I can guarantee to have Judgement of Wisdom 100% and I don't care about my judgement damage anyway.
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Postby Sharlos » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:45 pm

Mendin wrote:Make Enlightned Judgement takes out the gcd.

If this is OP for PvP make it decreases judgement damage for 50%.

This way I can guarantee to have Judgement of Wisdom 100% and I don't care about my judgement damage anyway.


Holy Paladin judgement only hits for 500-700 dmg.
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Postby Threatco » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:18 am

Sharlos wrote:
Mendin wrote:Make Enlightned Judgement takes out the gcd.

If this is OP for PvP make it decreases judgement damage for 50%.

This way I can guarantee to have Judgement of Wisdom 100% and I don't care about my judgement damage anyway.


Holy Paladin judgement only hits for 500-700 dmg.


Depends what seal you have up.

The way I read the changes as a whole is they are killing holy paladins in pvp.

I can't imagine 2v2 as holy without sacred shield on both of us. Will be a dead class/spec IMO.

PVE holy is going to suck bad too, but I got used to that pre glyphs and get used to it again.

Sorry for the doomsaying, just calling it as I see it.

On the bright side, I will spend less on respecing since theres 2 specs I won't be interested in playing anymore.
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Postby Elsie » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:41 am

Threatco wrote:
Sharlos wrote:
Mendin wrote:Make Enlightned Judgement takes out the gcd.

If this is OP for PvP make it decreases judgement damage for 50%.

This way I can guarantee to have Judgement of Wisdom 100% and I don't care about my judgement damage anyway.


Holy Paladin judgement only hits for 500-700 dmg.


Depends what seal you have up.

The way I read the changes as a whole is they are killing holy paladins in pvp.

I can't imagine 2v2 as holy without sacred shield on both of us. Will be a dead class/spec IMO.

PVE holy is going to suck bad too, but I got used to that pre glyphs and get used to it again.

Sorry for the doomsaying, just calling it as I see it.

On the bright side, I will spend less on respecing since theres 2 specs I won't be interested in playing anymore.

2v2 with only 1 sacred shield isn't as bad as you make it out. I routinely don't have it up on myself and a 5s holy shock is realistically overcompensation. SS isn't a huge mana cost to change application target, either. The only really bad change is giving warriors a bubble burster which will suck for paladins in 3v3 and 5v5, but also for ret in 2v2. Actually, it hurts ret more than holy in all brackets (and the -58.4% armor before gear arms gets hurts plate severely already).
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Postby sherck » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:37 am

I guess my major disappointment now that I have had a couple of weeks to digest the looming changes is that Blizzard apparently only believes that Holy Paladins need to be viable in one situation; being a single target healer in 25 man raid content.

They seem to contridict themselves in so many ways when it comes to the Holy spec.

On one hand, they refuse to give us a real baseline AoE heal so that we can deal with AoE damage in 5/10 man content. We sort of had a way to respond to AoE damage and that was Sacred Shield; but now that is no longer viable. When we ask for a baseline AoE heal, Blizzard's response is "Holy Light glyph."

They they turn around and say they are unhappy with us maxing out Intellect and just bombing Holy Light all day so that our mana regen needs to be nerfed....and the changes to DP, SA, BoW/Mana Tide, and the OOC mana regen are doing that quite effectively.

Nerf Enlightened Judgement on Justice for PvP balancing. So I am now a liability to a raid that brings both Prot paladins and Ret paladins because I will be overwriting one of their debuffs in order to judge Light/Wisdom to keep Judgments of the Pure up.

Nerf Infusion of Light because....I have no idea. I assume it was PvP change because 1.5 second Holy Light's in PvP was too much healing. Since most boss fights are about endurance rather than burst healing, I don't see why this was needed in PvE. And the LAME response from Blizzard that this was actually a mana regen buff because you are more likely to crit your Holy Light and then get mana back from Illumination is just bunk. My crit can still miss 1/3 of the time and then I get zero benefit from IoL.

I just don't get it. Blizzard continues to say they want to make all the specs fun, but then take fun stuff out from Holy healing. Seriously, all of my tools just scream that I am only suppose to be a single target healer (again). Why does Blizzard seem to be so threatened with a Paladin being able to effectively heal in 5/10 man content?

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Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:55 am

I guess my major disappointment now that I have had a couple of weeks to digest the looming changes is that Blizzard apparently only believes that Holy Paladins need to be viable in one situation; being a single target healer in 25 man raid content.

Oh now let's not be overly dramatic. They can two target heal extremely well.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:19 am

Elsie wrote:Oh now let's not be overly dramatic. They can two target heal extremely well.

... when one of the targets stays the same. ;) It's not quite the same flexibility of chainheal, CoH, or the like.
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Postby sherck » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:17 am

Elsie wrote:
I guess my major disappointment now that I have had a couple of weeks to digest the looming changes is that Blizzard apparently only believes that Holy Paladins need to be viable in one situation; being a single target healer in 25 man raid content.

Oh now let's not be overly dramatic. They can two target heal extremely well.


Lol...you are correct. We can heal 2 targets well...

Which puts us as a bit of a libability in 5/10 man content where we need to be healing 5 targets well....

Sigh...
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Postby Nemuria » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:47 am

Same concern here as we would bring 3 healers with 1 holy pal, while other class can dual heal.

I am running Ret in r25, Holy in 5/r10. Would have to switch habits then. But requirements in 25 man for a MT healer is just the same has being a MT/OT. WTB guild for Ulduar. By the same time alot are recruiting, which is scary knowing they cleared the content without a full roster.
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