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[Holy] Consolidated comments on Holy changes for 3.1

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Postby Zironic » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:23 am

Sharlos wrote:
If you don't like the fact that your class gets changed every now and then why are you playing an mmo?


I can live with change, however what I really dislike is how they're now sacrificing fun on the altar of balance.

Right now critting holy shock in PvE is important, because it would give me something I didn't have access to before, a really quick HL. After the patch I won't have any reason to care if HS crits because FoL is still too weak of a heal to be used and 20% crit to HL is negligible.

Similarly I really dislike how they recently decided to remove one of the most signature abilities of the mage class "Ap+pom+pyro" just because they weren't able to balance it in arena properly <.<
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Postby sherck » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:29 am

Zironic wrote:
Sharlos wrote:
If you don't like the fact that your class gets changed every now and then why are you playing an mmo?


I can live with change, however what I really dislike is how they're now sacrificing fun on the altar of balance.

Right now critting holy shock in PvE is important, because it would give me something I didn't have access to before, a really quick HL. After the patch I won't have any reason to care if HS crits because FoL is still too weak of a heal to be used and 20% crit to HL is negligible.


I totally agree.

Adding 20% Crit to Holy Light does not give you a "for sure" effect from IoL. Sure, I will be around 65% Crit for that Holy Light, but that means that, on average, 1/3 of the time I will get zero benefit from IoL.

And that seems to be a pretty bad talent that deep in the tree.

While I disagree slightly on the worthlessness of an instance FoL, especially in 5/10 man (I think they are very useful), if this goes into effect as written, I will have to think long and hard about taking IoL. With Haste, my FoL are around just over 1.05 seconds anyway which is typically quick enough to save DPS or other healers.

But it sure takes away a big tactical decision in Pally healing and I hate that.

The nerfs to IoL and SS just really take a lot of the "fun" back out of Pally healing. Back to single target SS/HL/FoL spam with Cleanse when needed.

Sigh...

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Postby Grimmal » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:49 am

Majiben wrote:said exactly what I was talking about


We aren't talking about having one playing style in PvE and one in PvP when I talk about seperating the two.

In EQ2 for a quick example. Crowd Control spells had their PvE effect, but when cast in PvP they would actually look at their PvP code and use it instead. So while in PvE a 'mesmerize' spell would land on the monster and put it to sleep for 30 seconds in PvP that same spell would only put a player to sleep for say 10. Both sides were completely seperate when it came to balancing and the fact that casting a CC in PvP could be extremely powerful didn't mean that the PvE balancing of the spell was wrong at all.

As Majiben posted, they could do the same things in WoW and it would end up being a much better game in the long run. You have small differences that you have to remember if you PvP, but the game is much healthier in the end. Abilities that aren't overpowered in PvE but are in PvP don't get nerfed across the board. Abilities which are to powerful in PvE but not in PvP don't get nerfed across the board. The both get adjusted in the area they are broken and that is that.

If you don't like the fact that your class gets changed every now and then why are you playing an mmo?


Nobody likes seeing their class changed for the worst due to areas they don't even take part in. Even yourself I'm sure.

It happens in MMOs and I adjusted myself to that fact well over a decade ago when I started playing them. It doesn't have to happen though for the reasons it happens most often in WoW. Balancing one aspect of the game against another that has nothing to do with each other.
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Postby Vindicated » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:58 am

Grimmal wrote:In EQ2 for a quick example. Crowd Control spells had their PvE effect, but when cast in PvP they would actually look at their PvP code and use it instead. So while in PvE a 'mesmerize' spell would land on the monster and put it to sleep for 30 seconds in PvP that same spell would only put a player to sleep for say 10. Both sides were completely seperate when it came to balancing and the fact that casting a CC in PvP could be extremely powerful didn't mean that the PvE balancing of the spell was wrong at all.


They already do that in WoW. See Repentance.
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Postby majiben » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:59 am

But not nearly enough. They seem to only apply it to, and i use the term loosely, CC.
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Postby Grimmal » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:14 am

Majiben wrote:But not nearly enough. They seem to only apply it to, and i use the term loosely, CC.


Again, Majiben makes the point before I can.

Blizzard could be doing much more than they are and in the end they should be imo. Not just because it would make the playerbase happy, but also because it would in the end make their balancing easier. Yes there would be some coding involved to get things up to speed, but after that was done WoW would be a much better game. No longer would PvP be a balancing act which all to often caused one side or the other of the game to slide out of balance. Instead they could balance seperately.

It would allow the PvE game to finally get out of the shadow that is PvP which it has been under since the game was originaly thought of, and it would allow PvP to finally become the Esport they want it to be.

But, that's just my opinion on things and I don't more sway than anybody else when it comes to these things. I'll keep playing because WoW is the best MMO out there atm, but I'll keep hoping that one day they will finally actually fix the problem.
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Postby Candiru » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:56 am

Also Curse of Doom cannot be cast on players.

And DR is applied to some PvP things when its not applied in PvE.

The main problem is that for PvE to be challenging, healers have to be able to heal tanks to full in a short space of time. But that means in PvP healing is very powerful if people aren't being one-shotted. if they are being one-shotted its worthless (where one-shot = duration of a CC)

Balancing the two is rather tricky.

What they could do is make PvP objective based. In fights like AB or WSG being able to kill the opponents in small scale 2v2 isn't as important as making a difference at the right place and time. if arena was replaced by an objective based arena it might be better.

You could add objectives around the arena to pick up and take back to base to win, or NPCs which you need to kill to win etc.

Or even add respawns to arena (or some arenas) so you have a AV style reinforcements limit to make arena slightly more fun.
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Postby bub64882 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:46 am

I love my Sacred Shield, and despise the nerf, but...

If Blizz is looking for ways to stop mitigating so much, make SS affect all party/raid members, put it on a 2 or 3 minute CD timer, and reduce that timer via talents in deep holy. Then adjust the cooldown/coefficients as necessary.

Personally I would hate it, but it might solve their problem and not gimp Holy.
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Postby Nemuria » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:14 am

They don't take in account players outside R25 and Arena, like a paladin is not supposed to exist outside. I am more and more thinking I "have to" join some Arena team and 25 man guild to enjoy the game. There will be less point in bringing a Holy paladin in 10 man. Two other type of healers can do both group & MT heals. Buffs can be given by a Prot or Ret paladin.

In 5 man, after trying Loken after wipes on wipes, it was the first time I said my class was not suited for smthing. Sacred Shield is helping a lot there. Maexxna and Horreb are really tricky and close to undoable with 2 paladins. While other 2-combos are brainless. I just top the tank and pray he won't take to hard during downtime.

IMO since overall 5 man and 10 man contents are cleared now, they can safely remove any group abilities. 3.1 new raid, new paladins, don't look behind and make some pvp ok:(
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Postby Zironic » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:17 am

In 5 man, after trying Loken after wipes on wipes, it was the first time I said my class was not suited for smthing. Sacred Shield is helping a lot there.


I gave up, put beacon on myself, SS on the tank and just let the rest of the group die, loken died 20 min later.

Horreb are really tricky and close to undoable with 2 paladins.


I'm assuming you meant Loatheb, Loatheb is actually very doable with 2 paladins right now due to the Holy Light glyph and sacred shield, but since they're so fucking intent on nerfing those abilities it'll soon enough be impossible.

What I do is that I put beacon on injured person A, then I put up SS on most of the raid, then I wind up a HL on injured person B just before the debuff runs out, HS injured person C and if it crits i'll FoL injured person D.
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Postby bub64882 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:37 am

It was Loken I was thinking of when I gave my suggestion two posts up. If the cooldown would allow you to apply SS to the whole party every other lightning blast even, you would be in a good position to get through that encounter without a death.
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Postby Squishums » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:44 pm

The immunity to interupts will be awesome. For pvp it will pretty much take the spot of the pre-emptive bubble, allowing you to save your bubble to break crowd control, or save your nuts.

The nerf to infusion of light will ruin the 2v2 spec where youre half ret more than anything. That spec still has the healing to function in a burst situation (rather than a mana situation for which its meant) because the insanely high crit chance + infusion of light is awesome. Full holy gets alot less infusion procs, and needs it alot less aswell because of all the extra sp and haste. In 2v2 holy/ret pally + warr/dk/hunter will be free rating to any double-dps team....which imo is fair because they are unbeatable vs pretty much any healer team.
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Postby Zironic » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:07 pm

In 2v2 holy/ret pally + warr/dk/hunter will be free rating to any double-dps team....which imo is fair because they are unbeatable vs pretty much any healer team.


This will change nothing for holy/ret+dk vs 2x dps, those games usually end really quickly due to the DK ripping one of the dps into small small pieces.

I think it'll hurt alot more against healer/dps since when you're tanking a dps class for extended periods of time you're very dependent on FoL IoL procs.
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Postby Squishums » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:11 am

Zironic wrote:
In 2v2 holy/ret pally + warr/dk/hunter will be free rating to any double-dps team....which imo is fair because they are unbeatable vs pretty much any healer team.


This will change nothing for holy/ret+dk vs 2x dps, those games usually end really quickly due to the DK ripping one of the dps into small small pieces.

I think it'll hurt alot more against healer/dps since when you're tanking a dps class for extended periods of time you're very dependent on FoL IoL procs.


Maybe. I play 2v2 as full holy, with a warrior in raid gear, so I hardly know much about 37/0/34 with a dk. I still suspect a properly played double dps team can pump massive dmg into someone (probably the dk) before going splat, they certainly can to an arms warrior, and arms warrs are way harder to kite than a deathknight.

I was thinking it would hurt more on double dps teams because against healers, youll still be able to handle the incoming dmg without IoL. You can cast a 2.5 sec HL with 1 dps bothering you, but you really cant with 2.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:53 am

It would be nice if casting holy shock activated Light's Grace, or even if IoL procced Light's Grace as well as the insta-Flash.
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