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[Holy] Consolidated comments on Holy changes for 3.1

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Postby Arnock » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:01 pm

Blizzard seems to have a habit of Knee-jerk reactions and over nerfing mechanics, It would be better both for balance itself, and public opinion, to implement small nerfs and build on them if the ability is still too powerful

SS on only one target is pretty ridiculous, it was one of the few ways a healadin could deal with AOE damage, maybe it was a little too powerfull though, so what they should have done, is either given it a short cooldown, perhaps 4 seconds like PW: Shield, or nerf the scaling coefficients.

I'm one for the cooldown, you can still put it up on multiple targets, but you can't realistically keep it up on an entire raid, it would be possible to stay up in a 5 man, you could probably keep it up on 8 people, so it would still allow Holy paladins to deal with AOE in 5/10 mans, and stick with single target in 25 mans, which seems to be what blizz is trying to focus on right now.
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Postby Arnock » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:03 pm

Elsie wrote:
-snip-
excellent post on the comparison between healing classes



If you haven't I would post this on the PTR and Healing forums for feedback
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Postby Candiru » Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:24 pm

Sacred shield and IoL->HolyLight are how I heal 5mans :(

Although, on the plus side, Sacred shield being single target means it makes prot and ret paladins more valuable to a raid.

Aura mastery should be a Hot/PoM/AoE heal or something instead.

Sacred shield and flash of light crits to heal the beaconed tank were fun.

Now you won't really be able to do that, which removes all the fun and strategy from holy.

Holylight spam ftl.
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Postby Grimmal » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:10 pm

Zironic wrote:
Grimmal wrote:So much for my tempting the gods and gearing up my Paladin as Holy again. What is already the most skilled required healer is now getting a gaping gut wound. Makes complete sense somehow I'm sure...

I wish they would just quite trying to make Holy so 'unqiue' and just give the class the same tools that other healers have. I have no plans on going back to Holy fulltime as I've found I much prefer Shaman healing. But seriously, enough is enough. Toss them a group heal, toss them a HoT, and level out single target heals of the other classes to make them somewhat closer.

Honestly, if they are so gungho to really bring the player why not? It'd be a much better option than what they have going atm imo.


Personally I have no problem being unique, the current 3.0.8 paladin is unique and can heal through most content fairly well.

The 3.1 paladin is unique and gimped and won't be able to function properly outside 25 mans and even in 25 mans it'll be boring as hell.


The only reason I say they should quite focusing on making Paladins so unique is because everytime they try, they just make the spec even more frustrating to actually play. Yes there are Holy Paladins who love the current style of play but there are also plenty who quit the class after the 3.0 changes because they were quite honestly band aid fixes.

A Holy Paladin already has to play twice as well as another healer outside of raid content to heal, these upcoming changes will make them have to play three times as well to do it. All for the sake of being 'unique' while actually having less overall functionality than the other three classes.

I'm not saying remove Beacon and the other class specific spells. Now that I've gotten used to it I actually like Beacon. It though is still much to limited for the job imo. Leaving it in place would allow Holy to still be unique in raids and allow them to still shine as tank healers (even if they had equal single target heals) just as Chain Heal allows the Resto Shaman to shine as raid healers. But balancing the class around their raid ability (in 25s) while gutting out the rest of their tools at random is really tiresome.

Just my opinion as somebody who loves healing but finds doing so as Holy frustrating as hell anymore. The 3.1 changes will mean that I'll drop the class as a alt healer yet again as I play to have fun, not bang my head against a brick wall trying to do what I can easily do on my other healer.
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Postby sherck » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:41 pm

Echo above.

Not only does it appear they are focusing the Paladin healer to only shine in 25 man raids, it appears to me that most of the nerfs are spurred soley from adjusting from PvP.

And I fricking HATE PvE nerfs for the benefit of PvP.

Can anyone justify the Judgements of Justice nerf from any PvE perspective? Any?

[[ EDIT: Just found this. Pretty much says that the JoJ nerf was solely for PvP. Glad to see them screwing around with raid issues soely for PvP "balancing." http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/15443193034-you-can-trinket-joj.html ]]

Change the mechanics of Sacred Shield just screams a PvP nerf. If it were OP in PvE like Ghostcrawler indicated, then they would change the Spell Power coefficient to make it less efficient. Instead, they change the mechanics. PvP spawned, IMO.

And finally, IoL nerf. Again, PvE raiding is much of the time about longetivity and lasting out the fight, not getting the most healing on target in the shortest amount of time. The Holy Light nerf part of IoL just screams that it was too OP in PvP / Arena where the outcome of the fight is typically decided in the first 15 seconds of the match.

I fricking hate PvE nerfs because they are trying to "balance" the class for PvP. Wish that it were two different games.[url][/url][url][/url]
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:56 pm

sherck wrote:Echo above.

Not only does it appear they are focusing the Paladin healer to only shine in 25 man raids, it appears to me that most of the nerfs are spurred soley from adjusting from PvP.

And I fricking HATE PvE nerfs for the benefit of PvP.

Can anyone justify the Judgements of Justice nerf from any PvE perspective? Any?

[[ EDIT: Just found this. Pretty much says that the JoJ nerf was solely for PvP. Glad to see them screwing around with raid issues soely for PvP "balancing." http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/15443193034-you-can-trinket-joj.html ]]

Change the mechanics of Sacred Shield just screams a PvP nerf. If it were OP in PvE like Ghostcrawler indicated, then they would change the Spell Power coefficient to make it less efficient. Instead, they change the mechanics. PvP spawned, IMO.

And finally, IoL nerf. Again, PvE raiding is much of the time about longetivity and lasting out the fight, not getting the most healing on target in the shortest amount of time. The Holy Light nerf part of IoL just screams that it was too OP in PvP / Arena where the outcome of the fight is typically decided in the first 15 seconds of the match.

I fricking hate PvE nerfs because they are trying to "balance" the class for PvP. Wish that it were two different games.[url][/url][url][/url]


The judgement of justice nerf has almost no effect in pve. Holy paladins can just judge wisdom instead.

The sacred shield nerf was a pve nerf, just as GC said. I'm sick of pve nerfs screwing pvp but thats the way things are. How is reducing the coefficient going to fix anything? Blizzard said they didn't want people casting it on everyone, now you can't.

As for infusion of light, I couldn't tell you why that was changed, probabbly pvp seeing they gave it a pve buff to compensate, but as long as people are playing the same class to pvp and pve changes to one are going to effect the other.

I'd also like to note that the last time an arena match was decided in the first 15 seconds of a game I had no resilience and a 1400 rating.
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:04 pm

Sharlos wrote:
The judgement of justice nerf has almost no effect in pve. Holy paladins can just judge wisdom instead.

I'd really recommend light, otherwise you'll fuck the poor protadin up by removing JotJ
Sharlos wrote:The sacred shield nerf was a pve nerf, just as GC said. I'm sick of pve nerfs screwing pvp but thats the way things are. How is reducing the coefficient going to fix anything? Blizzard said they didn't want people casting it on everyone, now you can't.

This won't have horribly much effect on PvP outside of fighting warlocks, but I have a 100% lossrate against healer/warlock so I don't see how it can get worse :P
Sharlos wrote:As for infusion of light, I couldn't tell you why that was changed, probabbly pvp seeing they gave it a pve buff to compensate, but as long as people are playing the same class to pvp and pve changes to one are going to effect the other.

PvE buff? What the fuck are you smoking, 20% more crit after a HS crit is worthless in PvE.
Sharlos wrote:I'd also like to note that the last time an arena match was decided in the first 15 seconds of a game I had no resilience and a 1400 rating.

Pretty much any 2x dps game is decided in the first 15 seconds.(A few very skilled 2 dps teams can recover from a failed start, usually mage/rogue).
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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:19 pm

Zironic wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:It's Blizzard trying to fix a problem, failing spectacularly, and catching something else in the crossfire. It clearly isn't intended to screw Paladin healers in anything smaller than a 25-man, even though it's going to.


Indeed, I can see the motivation for each of the changes they've done but the end result is just making paladins gimped in sub 25-man content and even in 25 man content there will be no fun left.

I don't think anyone signed up for mindless holy light spam on the MT.

I concur. The line of thinking seems to have been:

1. Sacred shield is a good bit stronger than similar alternatives so it should be changed to more in line.
2. Glyph of Holy Light is a good bit stronger than alternatives that can do similar, so it should be changed to where other classes keep their strong point.
3. Paladins are healing too much too fast compared to other classes, so we need to fix their haste proc to bring them in line.

None of these individually are wrong. The problem is that it's bringing Paladin in line with other healers, but not other healers in line with paladins. If we extended the presumed logic of these changes then we have:

1. Circle of Healing and Wild Growth are a lot stronger than what others have, so we need to nerf or remove them to bring it more in line
2. Chain Heal and Prayer of Mending are a bit stronger than what other classes can do, so we need to fix them to bring them in line.
3. Lifebloom's duration is a little bit overtuned compared to the healing over time of other classes, so we need to lower it to bring druids in line.
4... etc

So, following the logic of the paladin changes, we quickly see that every class ends up with Four buttons: Remove Debuff, Quick Heal, Big Heal, Prevent Damage.

The judgement of justice nerf has almost no effect in pve. Holy paladins can just judge wisdom instead.

The sacred shield nerf was a pve nerf, just as GC said. I'm sick of pve nerfs screwing pvp but thats the way things are. How is reducing the coefficient going to fix anything? Blizzard said they didn't want people casting it on everyone, now you can't.

The sacred shield change is not a significant PvP nerf. In 2v2, damage is not quick enough to where two targets having Sacred Shield is significant. It's an instant cast and damage dealt is not so fast to where SS can't be changed to the new focus. Similarly, 3v3 is a big faster but, in general, there is always a focus target to make Sacred Shield quite effective. In 5v5 there's not enough time to care about Sacred Shield sometimes. It's a slight nerf in 3v3 and 5v5, but hardly a concern.

Now, in PvE there's an argument of using Sacred Shield as a "Rolling Prevention Hot." Sacred shield can be kept up on 25 targets for potentially ~2200 damage absorbed each. Over 30 seconds, this can potentially be 275000 damage prevention. That's 9167 "HPS" equivalency. If there is not enough damage to maximize Sacred Shield, then Sacred Shield is simply scaled down to whatever the damage done is. This is pretty significant since it basically outclasses every AoE heal in the game if you take the whole raid into account.

If we want to find an equivalency for Sacred Shield in the above situation, it's a lot like allowing a druid to keep Lifebloom up on 25 targets. However, Lifebloom on one target makes the spell nearly worthless except for Main Tank healing.

The judgement of justice nerf has almost no effect in pve. Holy paladins can just judge wisdom instead.

Indeed, Judgment of Wisdom has the same effect for all paladins. Judgment of Light is variable. However, this does not account for the entire story. Let's assume a raid has 1 paladin of each type. The Retribution paladin will use Judgment of Light for the highest possible Healing from the judgment. A holy paladin will judge wisdom since he cannot stand back and use Judgment of Justice. This means a protection paladin will Judgment of Justice to prevent Judgments of the Just from being removed.
The problem here is that a holy paladin's Judgment debuff is not, realistically, 100%. Therefore, a protection paladin has to swap to Judgment of Wisdom now and then. This has a very high risk of removing the -20% swing speed debuff and an unrealistic amount of coordination is required since the tank cannot see the holy paladin's buff and debuff durations or read the holy paladin's mind to see when he will refresh the debuff. This is a possible 8 seconds where the boss basically gains 20% haste.

Now, there is a simple solution to this. They merely need to change the Judgment of Light debuff to favor Spell Power. Let's say a retribution paladin has 5000 raid buffed AP and 1500 SP. A Holy paladin has roughly 1500 AP and 2600 SP. If Light is changed to, say, 50% AP 75% SP, then ret is at 3625 and holy is at 2700. If we reduce AP to at 30%, then ret is at 2625 and holy is at 2400. We see the gap is lowered. If these two values are within a small margin of each other then we can simply have Holy judge Light and Ret judge Justice. This has no raid efficiency loss.
Last edited by Elsie on Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Maat » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:29 pm

Zironic wrote:
Sharlos wrote:
The judgement of justice nerf has almost no effect in pve. Holy paladins can just judge wisdom instead.

I'd really recommend light, otherwise you'll fuck the poor protadin up by removing JotJ


It doesn't matter which judgement a protadin uses, as long as no one else drops the same one?

It's more of the uptime on Holy paladin judgements, because in frantic chain-cast situations it may not be feasible to use a GCD to drop a judgement every 20 seconds. JoW is extremely powerful for any mp-based dps, which is the drawback of using a Prot+Justice/Ret+Light/Holy+Wisdom setup.

On another note, there is a Libram of the Sacred Shield on the Ulduar loot table somewhere, sounds suspicious.
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:41 pm

I can't see how a libram of sacred shield would be worth getting compared to a HL or FoL libram. Especially now that SS can only be used on one target.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:57 pm

Arnock wrote:
Elsie wrote:
-snip-
excellent post on the comparison between healing classes



If you haven't I would post this on the PTR and Healing forums for feedback

You're welcome to post it there provided you site me as the original author. You're welcome to edit out some of the rambling to make it more concise (Without changing the message). You're even welcome to my second post (a bit above this one). I don't have a very strong desire to post on the official forums.

On a side note, thanks for the appreciation =)
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Postby Zironic » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:03 pm

Honestly I'm starting to feel that Arena is breaking the game, the classes just don't survive the strain of being balanced for pve and small pvp at the same time.

If they didn't have to worry so much about how it would affect 2v2 arena I think they could make all classes ALOT more enjoyable to play in PvE.

Imo pvp was alot more fun and pure when it was all about hillsbraad vs southshore and there were no pvp rewards.

From Ghostcrawlers comments it seems he isn't very happy either being stuck considering the arena implications of every little change he does, I wonder when they'll release some better pvp content to replace arena so we can get our holy paladin fun back :(
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Postby Grimmal » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:50 pm

Honestly I'm starting to feel that Arena is breaking the game, the classes just don't survive the strain of being balanced for pve and small pvp at the same time.


It was evident from day one of the Arena announcement that it would break the PvE game. Yes they have reigned it in some, but it still comes into play with every decision they make.

From Ghostcrawlers comments it seems he isn't very happy either being stuck considering the arena implications of every little change he does, I wonder when they'll release some better pvp content to replace arena so we can get our holy paladin fun back


The tech is out there and has been for a very long time now to have PvE and PvP code seperate. I've said it multiple times here that EQ2 does that very thing and has since it was released so it isn't even close to a new thing.

If the Devs are frustrated and want to see it seperated then they should get to it. It's not like the playerbase is happy about it. Most players I know are sick and tired of it regardless of if they PvE, PvP, or both. Everybody no matter how they play the game gets hit by these changes eventually and it is past tiresome.
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Postby Sharlos » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:42 am

We'll of course arena will come into every decision they make, just as pve does. And as someone who enjoys both styles of play I quite like it that way.

I would certianly prefer not having seperate mechanics for pvp and pve anymore than they currently are, if I wanted to play a different class, I'd roll one.

I don't see what the big deal is, everyone seems to get upset when something gets changed because of arenas that effects raids, but don't mind when something gets changed because of raids that effects arenas.

If you don't like the fact that your class gets changed every now and then why are you playing an mmo?
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Postby majiben » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:51 am

Different mechanics does not mean that the spell is radically changed. The best example I can think of is diminishing returns in pvp. Some spells function differently in PVP because of diminishing returns. Now that's a rather small difference but gives you a taste of what could be done. Now say that giving paladins a CD that increases our BV by 400% is rejected because it would essentially allow us to one shot many classes with ShoR. If they used different mechanics for PVP they could make ShoR not scale with BV gained from that ability or only gain 200% to make the damage survivable. In the current enviroment they would reject what could be a useful and interesting ability outright because it would be a headache to balance in PVP.
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