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[Holy] Consolidated comments on Holy changes for 3.1

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[Holy] Consolidated comments on Holy changes for 3.1

Postby sherck » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:17 pm

Thread title moderated in accordance with stickied guidelines. -Baelor

So, I know this site is called Maintankadin but quite a few Healadins make the stop here and have been pretty vocal in past threads. I would not mind getting some feedback from those who play a PvE Paladin healer to the latest proposed changes in the 3.1 patch.

Here are some of the proposed changes by Blizzard and my comments on them.

* Auras will now persist through death and affect a 40 yard radius.
* Blessing of Kings is now trainable at level 20. Removed from talent trees.
* Forbearance reduced to 2 min duration.


In my book, these all appear to be winners. Yeah to having the melee group effected by your aura when trying to heal at maximum range. Yeah to not having to spend points in Prot to get Kings. Yeah to being able to use DP/DS/AW more effectively due to a reduction in Forbearance. All nice changes.

* Hand of Sacrifice: The damage transferred by this ability is now capped by the Paladin’s health.

I actually like this change because now I know that I am not going to kill myself when using it. As long as a single heal hits me sometime while I am taking damage from this whether it is a self-heal, or a healthstone or a HoT tick from another healer, I know that I am going to survive using this. Before, I could just as easily get glibed if I were not watching my health bar. Love it.

* Sacred Shield: This effect cannot be cast on more than one friendly target at a time.

Oh, goodness, Blizzard. This was my only form of AoE damage mitigation. You refuse to give me an AoE heal; this was all I had going for me. And now, it is merely more effective health for the tank. If it was too good, then nerf it’s coefficients but to take away the only way I had to do something about AoE damage? The Healadin goes back to being a one trick-pony. Sigh…

* Aura Mastery: Now makes anyone affected by Concentration Aura to be immune to Interrupt and Silence mechanics and increases the effectiveness of all other auras by 100%. Lasts 10 sec. 2 min cooldown.

Ummm….could be OP, could be near worthless. The near worthless comes in the form of when used with Devotion and Retribution auras. The extra armor provided or damage dealt is a drop in the bucket for current raid content. The immunity to Interrupt & Silence in Concentration Aura is very nice…but my bet is that it will not remove said effects, it will just make you immune to the onslaught of new effects so it has to be pre-cast to be effectively. That would defiantly make it less useful.

And it will be completely OP if it is effective on the Resist auras. Every time a boss has a Fire/Frost/Shadow effect with a big windup. You just cycle all the Paladin’s who have specced into it to enable their resist aura with the added effect. Huge damage reduction with a 260 resist. At least it will make me think about taking it.

* Blessed Hands: No longer reduces cooldowns of Hand spells. Instead, it improves the effectiveness of Hand of Salvation by 50/100% and Hand of Sacrifice by an additional 5/10%.

Wow, a 40% reduction in threat on a DPS on a Hand of Salvation? Very nice but I will not be taking the talent because it would make Hand of Sacrifice more effective and will most likely kill me as I mentioned above. Probably not worth the points to a PvE healer.

* Enlightened Judgements: No longer increases the range of Judgement of Justice. Moved to Tier 10.

Okay, so as of now, Ret judges Light because they have the most combined AP/SP and love to have the Righteous Vengeance debuff. Prot judges Wisdom for the Judgements of the Just debuff. And Holy judges Justice to get the Judgements of the Pure buff and to NOT overwrite the Righteous Vengeance or Judgements of the Just debuffs.

Now what is Holy suppose to judge from 40 yards away in order to maintain their haste buff? A clear example of a PvP change (wahhh, wahhh..that Holy Paladin judged me in the arena and made it so it took me 2 seconds longer to get to him….wahhhh) that now completely screws up PvE raiding.

My guess is that the Judgements of the Just debuff is the more important of the two and that now Prot will judge Light and both Ret/Holy will judge Wisdom and forget the extra damage from Righteous Vengeance when it gets overwritten until the next time a Ret crits Judgements or Divine Storm.

* Improved Concentration Aura: The resistance to silence and interrupt granted by this talent now becomes active when any Aura is used, not just Concentration Aura.

Buff for me when I am soloing / questing but not much of a buff for me when I am healing because I am doing the Concentration Aura when healing. If there are multiple Healadins, then one of them is STILL doing Concentration aura. If I am the only Paladin or one of few, I am still doing Concentration. I don’t see this as much of a raid buff at all; I will not be throwing another aura in a raid.

* Infusion of Light: Now increases the critical chance of your next Holy Light by 10/20% instead of reducing cast time. Moved to Tier 10.

Oh, the big bite. This now takes it from a sure thing when you get the Infusion of Light proc to a possible help. Before, you did not know when Holy Shock would crit but when it did, you KNEW you had a special advantage ready to go. Instance FoL or a much shortened Holy Light. Now, you still have the instant FoL (unless they removed that, wording is unclear) but now you only have a POSSIBLE special advantange. Sure, my Holy Light crit rate right now is 40.5% and is about 45% when fully raid buffed. And this would take it to 65% crit rate. But that is still only 2/3 of a chance to get a special effect out of it. What happens if IoL procs and then my Holy Light misses it’s crit? I got NOTHING out of my IoL proc. Nothing.

As far as I am concerned, they might as well have left off the Holy Light effect because I will now never use anything except FoL when IoL procs. I want a for sure effect, not a chance of a chance thing…which is why Sacred Cleansing is such a bad talent.

Anyway, that is my read. The Sacred Shield nerf sucks. The Enlightened Judgement nerf sucks. The Infusion of Light nerf sucks. And to compensate for it, we got Kings baseline, our Aura pushed out to 40 yards and….and…and….

Oh wait, all the Paladin’s got those buffs. Holy Paladin’s just got straight nerfs.

What am I missing?

Cheers,
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Postby Elsie » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:45 pm

Sacred shield is also buffed in the prot tree. That's fairly significant for holy.
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Postby Zironic » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:27 pm

Elsie wrote:Sacred shield is also buffed in the prot tree. That's fairly significant for holy.


No it's not. I can't imagine the holy build that would go 17 prot for PvE, and even if you do all you'll get is that you spend 1 less GCD a minute refreshing the thing and it'll absorb about 400 more damage every 6 seconds.
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Postby Boxy » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:24 pm

Elsie wrote:Sacred shield is also buffed in the prot tree. That's fairly significant for holy.


Not significant enough for me to drop the crit from ret, and with only being able to cast 1 sacred shield now it makes it seem even less valuable. I see it as a nice prot talent though, to wack on someone who's taking damage often.



With how divine plea is working now i need that extra crit from ret to stay viable for longer encounters.

Infusion of light is the hardest hit they have given us this round though. it was great for saving people, but now... if they have removed the instant FoL as well i'd almost not pick it up. Except there isnt anything else to take to advance forward.

I agree with the OP on most points, and i will wait until 3.1 hits with whatever changes before i start crying foul. Currently i think they have taken too much from us and left us with little compensation.
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Postby Sharlos » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:27 pm

Zironic wrote:
Elsie wrote:Sacred shield is also buffed in the prot tree. That's fairly significant for holy.


No it's not. I can't imagine the holy build that would go 17 prot for PvE, and even if you do all you'll get is that you spend 1 less GCD a minute refreshing the thing and it'll absorb about 400 more damage every 6 seconds.


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Postby PsiVen » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:50 pm

I'm not sure why you are so concerned with killing yourself with sacrifice, I have always found it somewhat difficult to suicide with. That change is certainly a nerf in my eyes.

I don't know what they're thinking with IoL and Sacred Shield, combined they will make 5-man healing annoying as hell again.

The real problem with talented judgements is that their effects should be separated from the judgements themselves. My solution has been to spec for both debuffs and tell everyone else to judge wisdom.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:27 am

Zironic wrote:
Elsie wrote:Sacred shield is also buffed in the prot tree. That's fairly significant for holy.


No it's not. I can't imagine the holy build that would go 17 prot for PvE, and even if you do all you'll get is that you spend 1 less GCD a minute refreshing the thing and it'll absorb about 400 more damage every 6 seconds.

...I can imagine considering some right now go 17-20 into holy. Also, it's 400 per 6s for 60 seconds. That's 4000 damage prevented and 1 GCD saved.


Not significant enough for me to drop the crit from ret, and with only being able to cast 1 sacred shield now it makes it seem even less valuable. I see it as a nice prot talent though, to wack on someone who's taking damage often.
With how divine plea is working now i need that extra crit from ret to stay viable for longer encounters.

It isn't the ONLY thing in protection. There's Divine Sacrifice, Divine Guardian, +5% healing done (and received), Improved Devotion Aura, then +20% effectiveness on Sacred Shield. Also, Hand of Sacrifice fits the "survive more" niche much better. Also I think it's crazy to not pick up Infusion of Light.

Toughness and Guardian's Favor could be useful in PvE if there's any mass or targeted physical (Rasuvious) damage and snares. That said, they aren't any less useful than Improved Judgment, Heart of the Crusader, and possibly Benediction.

In other news, I think that only Judgment of Light/Wisdom being 40 yards is an overblown issue. A ret paladin's judgment is every 7s (or 8 if 4pc changes). That's 0-8 seconds, or an average of 4 seconds, that a "less good" judgment debuff is up every minute - roughly 6.7% of a fight. That's assuming one ret paladin and one holy paladin, granted, but it doesn't grow that fast in average time.
Last edited by Elsie on Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby majiben » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:35 am

That's a theorethical 4000 increased absorption. Due to the shield requiring the target to be damage once to activate it and once more to actually prevent damage.

I wonder if they've considered giving Warriors a talent to bypass absorption shields partially so they aren't rage starved. Or pehaps give them a special attack that returns it's rage cost proprotional to the damage prevented by damage shield.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:37 am

Majiben wrote:That's a theorethical 4000 increased absorption. Due to the shield requiring the target to be damage once to activate it and once more to actually prevent damage.

I wonder if they've considered giving Warriors a talent to bypass absorption shields partially so they aren't rage starved. Or pehaps give them a special attack that returns it's rage cost proprotional to the damage prevented by damage shield.
Well in this patch aren't they making absorbed attacks generate rage?
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Postby majiben » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:38 am

Well if they go through with that it begs the question as to why they reduced SS to one target.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:40 am

Majiben wrote:Well if they go through with that it begs the question as to why they reduced SS to one target.

GC answered that one, it's a pretty bad answer though...

Ghostcrawler wrote:Sacred Shield was possibly only a problem in PvP on the larger teams (or for rage generation, but we fixed that separately).

It was really a PvE problem because the damage prevention was really starting to add up in Ulduar. We know this was supposed to be one of the answers for how paladins can "group heal." However, you shouldn't need to do a ton of group healing in raids, and in PvP or heroic dungeons, you should still have enough tools to manage: fast heals, the HL glyph, Beacon, etc.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/1544331 ... hange.html



Rage gen comment, there was more details in an earlier blue post though.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/1544342 ... ation.html
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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:49 am

Majiben wrote:That's a theorethical 4000 increased absorption. Due to the shield requiring the target to be damage once to activate it and once more to actually prevent damage.

I wonder if they've considered giving Warriors a talent to bypass absorption shields partially so they aren't rage starved. Or pehaps give them a special attack that returns it's rage cost proprotional to the damage prevented by damage shield.

True, but at any rate it's strictly +20% over before since if the improved version would not proc, then the original would not have either.

But, on the other hand, it's also less likely to consume the effect before Flash of Light can be cast. While this may not be feasible still, it's interesting to me and very probable in pvp.
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Postby majiben » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:51 am

I don't like that they don't care about holy's group healing ability especially for 10 mans.

I'm not sure what particular part about damage prevention from holy paladins was striking a chord with the developers. I can't help but feel that Disc priests could do similar if not more prevention and there's also the fact that a SS on a tank doesn't work well if there's a disc priest on them too.

If the damage prevention was an issue on tanks then disc wouldn't be around and they did nothing to reslove that and in fact potentially made damage prevention on tanks stronger by the new DG. On AoE it was ineffective against large bursts since it has be triggered off of recent damage. Against a ticking raid damage it is effective to an extent but that AoE is rarely what kills or is a challenge for healers.

The only fight where I could see it being unusually strong would be loatheb but he's somewhat trivial. Should they make another encounter similar to that but challenging there's little reason not to stock on priests rather than choosing either priests or paladins.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:57 am

Majiben wrote:I don't like that they don't care about holy's group healing ability especially for 10 mans.

Yeah, that's the glaring issue for me too. If their group heal was mitigating too much damage, that's one thing. Removing the mechanic entirely because they "shouldn't need" it is something completely different.

His PVP comment doesn't seem accurate either. Sure in a 5 man it may mitigate more damage simply because there's more to be mitigated. But in 2s or 3s it should have a much higher uptime potential with a smaller dispell potential. I'd love the see the percentage mitigated for those brackets.

I haven't really done arenas though, so I may be missing something (like mana efficiency) that makes it less useful in the smaller brackets.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:38 am

But, on the other hand, it's also less likely to consume the effect before Flash of Light can be cast. While this may not be feasible still, it's interesting to me and very probable in pvp.
GC answered that one, it's a pretty bad answer though...

I'm quoting you for the truth of it. Let's examine:
1. Fast Heals
-Instant Spells:
Holy paladin heals are slower than all other heals. CoH, Wild Growth, and Riptide are instance. Renew, Power Word Shield, Penance, Lifebloom, Earthshield, Life Stream Totem and Renew are all instant or at least "automatic." Comparatively, a paladin has holy shock and sacred shield. Furthermore, with rolling considered,
Number of instants - Priest: 4 Shaman: 2 Druid: 2 Paladin: 2
Maximum Number in one cast - 7, 5, 5, 1

2. Fast Casting Spells
Priest: 1.5s Flash Heal
Shaman: 1.5s Lesser Healing Wave
Druid: 1.5s Healing Touch
Paladin: 1.5s Flash of Light
Net Result: All have a 1.5s cast spell available, optimal hps aside.

3. Innate Haste
Priest: 0% or 5%
Shaman:0%
Druid: 0% (I'm not sure how Gift of the Earthmother would translate)
Paladin: 15%
Net Result: A paladin has at least 10% more innate haste rating, equating to roughly 0.1 or 0.15s faster healing on the fastest healing they can do compared to the fastest healing another class can do in their situation.

4. "Proc and Cooldown Haste"
Priest: Power Infusion or Improved Holy Concentration, Surge of Light
Shaman: Nature's Swiftness, Tidal Waves (2)
Druid: Nature's Swiftness (1)
Paladin: Infusion of Light, Light's Grace (1)
Net Result: It's hard to put a Paladin's random and cooldown haste above the other classes. Holy priests and shamans both have two strong abilities to lower cast times, and druids are the only one behind with a single cool down, but that's somewhat mitigated by Living Seed which does not really fit any such category I am going to be using.

5. Multi-heal abilities that aren't quite "AoE" or "Single target"
Priest: Binding Heal (2), Prayer of Mending (7)
Shaman: Chain Heal (3)
Druid: (see text)
Paladin: Beacon of Light, Holy Light Glyph
Notes: While it may feel odd to restate prayer of mending, it is an very unique spell - as Blizzard has stated before. Druids are hard to place here since they have "rolling hots." A holy paladin can, for example with Beacon of Light can heal for anywhere from around 10,000 (main target crit) to 21,000 (main target crit who had a 10,000 HP deficiency, beacon, glyph splash). This heals two targets very well if the holy light target is HP deficient at the time and the glyph is spread over up to 5 people for roughly the same as a shaman's third target with chain heal.
Net Result: Paladins are about as efficient as shamans -if- there are sufficient targets grouped and a sufficiently HP deficient target.

-Problem: The optimal target for holy light maximization would be the MT. However, for this very reason he's also the optimal Beacon target. This means a holy paladin is basically gambling on one of the these two situations:
    (1) The MT not getting healed before holy light lands, and the beacon target is going to get the, possibly random (such as on Kel'thuzad and Instructor Rasuvious), large incoming damage that can be healed from healing the tank.
    (2) Someone besides the MT getting hit heavily enough so that the MT with beacon gains enough healing to survive.
These two situations leads to beacon being incredibly good on fights such as patchwerk where more than one designated person will assuredly take high damage. It makes its usefulness on fights such as Ke'thuzad greatly diminished.

Example.
To put some numbers to this, Let's take four baseline haste healers and put them in the the paladin's no-aoe heal situation for five party members who will take uniform damage. Let's also assume beacon of light is used, binding heal, chain heal, any cool down haste effect, and 2 stacks of lifebloom for a druid. All healers will use their Fastest Healing Method Available otherwise.
Paladin: 5.2 seconds (Flash of Light on 4 targets)
Holy Priest Priest: 6 seconds (Flash Heal on 3 targets, Binding heal)
Disc Priest: 4.76 seconds (Power Infusion included)
Druid: 5 seconds (2 lifebloom stacks count as 0s, swiftmend, 2 Healing Touch)
Shaman: 5s (Two chain heals, glyphed)
Alternative Shaman: 6.2s (Chain heal, 3 Lesser healing wave)
What this means: Assuming all classes can heal people up with the "paladin method" then the paladins are clearly not the strongest healer for their own method. This is given Infusion of Light no longer reduces cast time (in which case the paladin above goes to 4.8s). Even with the instant flash of light a disc priest comes out ahead, but obviously cannot power infusion as often as Divine Favor.

Now, a paladin's mitigating factor in this is basically applying the "Rolling hot" factor for the NEXT time this happens through sacred shield. They require 5.2s to heal everyone, and the Sacred Shield buff will last 6s ensuring they do not get bursted down further. In 3.1, this is no longer the case and there is the chance net HP loss will occur since, in practical terms, the tank will be the one receiving Beacon of Light.

Please Read:
Now, obviously this isn't how classes heal. The non-paladin 1.5s heals described here are largely considered inefficient and are not widely applied. In fact, even Flash of Light is considered not very useful in raids and some healing situations that require Holy Light "bombing." This was simply a "What if" scenario that does not use any real values on healing done for a spell or healing necessary, but merely states that if all spells are sufficient then a paladin can be beaten at his own game in the new system or is within 1s of the "worst case" I have chosen for other healers. I also assumed uniform damage to make the example more basic. Any AoE healing "without an AoE" scenarios can be extended from this this base which is why it's useful.

Why the model of an all-single-target-healer is suboptimal:
In Classic, paladins spammed a heal button on a tank or hit cleanse/kings a lot. In TBC, paladins mostly spammed a heal button on a tank and hit cleanse a bit / a lot. In WotLK, healing is supposed to become something more interactive and interesting. With the current set up, a paladin's primary raid job is hitting a heal button on a tank, cast sacred shield and cleanse rarely, and cast beacon on another tank/damage target. The main difference is cleanse is less useful now due to Cleansing Totem, Abolish Disease, Abolish Poison, Cleanse Spirit, and Dispel. Essentially, they interact with maybe very few people without Sacred Shield on several fights.

Suggestions:
Make Sacred Shield inherently different, but keep the direction. Make Sacred Shield castable on only 1-3 targets at a time, and have the proc grant the holy paladin a chance for 6s for her flash of light to act in a similar fashion to cleave or Whirlwind. This way, they aren't just the 3.0 version of the "Kings Paladin" in Classic. This makes the paladin very good for raids good at coordination. This makes a raid weigh in the benefits of two people standing near each other, where near each other, or when. This lets the paladin's flash of light become situationally a strong Chain Heal or Binding Heal or situationally worse.
tl;dr - Make SS unique 3 and proc Flash of Cleaving Light.

I don't like that they don't care about holy's group healing ability especially for 10 mans.

I'm not sure what particular part about damage prevention from holy paladins was striking a chord with the developers. I can't help but feel that Disc priests could do similar if not more prevention and there's also the fact that a SS on a tank doesn't work well if there's a disc priest on them too.

I imagine that a paladin was basically doing little except Sacred Shield on everyone. At 1 to 1.5s GCDs, and 25 people, the duration is about as long as the buff. It'd be pretty boring for a paladin to cast kings, err, sacred shield all raid. I'm not particularly sure what makes it acceptable for two holy priests, two shamans, or two druids to heal a 10-man fine but for two paladins to struggle with most of it (or approach impossible).

His PVP comment doesn't seem accurate either. Sure in a 5 man it may mitigate more damage simply because there's more to be mitigated. But in 2s or 3s it should have a much higher uptime potential with a smaller dispell potential. I'd love the see the percentage mitigated for those brackets.

Sacred Shield is stronger in 2s and 3s than 5s, frankly. In 5s you don't have a free 7s or so to be casually casting sacred shield on everyone... unless you run 3 healers / 2 dps or 4/1. Most people run 2 healers / 3 dps.

In pvp it's actually pretty amazing. It either (1) absorbs dmg (2) absorbs dmg and crits flash of light (3) eats a dispel with the proc instead of kings/wisdom/etc (4) eats the Sacred Shield buff which has no CD for reapplicable like other dmg absorption. I'm quite fond of it even when I pvp as ret since, at worse, it's some spell damage mitigation or a dummy buff.
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