Help with Tanking Talents on Patch 3.1

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Postby Dorvan » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:31 pm

Laz wrote:Well, that is a valid argument. But, that still doesn't change the fact that you're nitpicking to find validity. I could also argue that with sufficient DPS you won't be able to spare the TPS to judge the second target. See how easy that was? Also, you could simply have a warrior tank the drakes while you cover the adds. Before you respond to this hypothetical realize that we could trade back and forth with countless scenarios where one spec is better than the other.


Honestly, a tank that requires someone else to do a basic part of there job is quite lacking. Being the only tank on a mob isn't exactly some obscure edge case.

The problem I have is with the insinuation on this forum that JotJ is somehow a required talent. There is a lot of handwaving that goes on around here to support this conclusion. I would argue that in 99% of cases in this expansion to date that you do NOT need JotJ and it ends up being 2 wasted talent points.


If you're saying that most content is trivial and you can tank is as Ret then sure, but that's hardly of interest to most people around here. For tanking anything hard, having a 20% speed debuff on the boss is mandatory, and it's silly to make yourself reliant on someone else who's not tanking the boss to provide that benefit for you.

Maybe what they should do is take JotJ and move it down to replace reckoning. :)


JotJ well worth it exactly where it is. If you can't see the benefit of a 20% speed debuff with no extra effort required by anyone is the raid, guaranteed to be up as long as the tank's up, I'm not sure what to tell you.
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Postby Conaan! » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:32 pm

Laz wrote:Well, that is a valid argument. But, that still doesn't change the fact that you're nitpicking to find validity. I could also argue that with sufficient DPS you won't be able to spare the TPS to judge the second target. See how easy that was? Also, you could simply have a warrior tank the drakes while you cover the adds. Before you respond to this hypothetical realize that we could trade back and forth with countless scenarios where one spec is better than the other.

The problem I have is with the insinuation on this forum that JotJ is somehow a required talent. There is a lot of handwaving that goes on around here to support this conclusion. I would argue that in 99% of cases in this expansion to date that you do NOT need JotJ and it ends up being 2 wasted talent points.

All of this could change in 3.1 and I will certainly be erring on the side of caution as we delve into Ulduar. A prime situation that would warrant JotJ is extended offtanking in a large area, such as in Fathom Lord or the Illidari Council. If there are similar encounters in Ulduar, you will want to have JotJ.

Maybe what they should do is take JotJ and move it down to replace reckoning. :)


see, this is the problem people have with WotLK, tanks completely forget that staying alive is the centerpiece of tanking, get JotJ and stop speccing into unneeded threat, you dont do threat when your dead


you will hopefully remember back to BC, and remember that keeping alive was important, and will be important in ulduar
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Postby Laz » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:45 pm

No, I haven't forgotten that. I referenced a few situations in BC where JotJ would have been ideal. LK content is currently 100% faceroll. JotJ is not remotely required at this time. I can think of 2 fights in game where you might need JotJ and that is 6 min Malygos and drake tank on Sarth+3. If you had to have it for those 2 fights, a respec is easy enough. Patchwerk needs it as well, but you're always with at least 1 other tank there. The reality is that JotJ simply isn't needed given the available content.

When 3.1 comes out, there won't be a good reason to skip JotJ even with a Crusade spec. You'll get the benefits of both and so your argument is needlessly insulting.

If you want to take this spec today you have to make tradeoffs. You could keep JotJ and drop to 2/5 in ardent defender if you want. Beating on JotJ while ignoring that there is more than one way to get to 0/53/18 is a strawman.

Here are just 2:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

p.s. Remember that this doesn't matter in a few weeks. No need to beat a dead horse. I'm done arguing this.
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Postby Neejo » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:54 am

Which bothers me now is that we still dont get an 11-point-talent.
btw, i assume there is a typo at MMO-champ:
Glyph of Last Stand: Now reduces the cooldown of Last Stand by 90 sec.
source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=41628.0
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Postby Saeverud » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:21 am

Knaughty wrote:In 3.1, 0/53/18 is currently a viable build, but the protection tree looks severely underweight & unfinished.


Why would you take the second point in imp judgement? Wouldnt' that throw off your rotation? So taking the four points in benediction would be a better choice, especially if you have a ret paladin? If not the heart of the crusader would definitely bet the best choice.
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:49 am

I never understood why so many people think 2/2 imp judgement would throw off your rotation. It makes judgment available sooner than you need it, it doesn't force you to click it as soon as it's available.
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Postby Conaan! » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:07 am

Saeverud wrote:
Knaughty wrote:In 3.1, 0/53/18 is currently a viable build, but the protection tree looks severely underweight & unfinished.


Why would you take the second point in imp judgement? Wouldnt' that throw off your rotation? So taking the four points in benediction would be a better choice, especially if you have a ret paladin? If not the heart of the crusader would definitely bet the best choice.


it just brings it up sooner, its useful for whelps/blaze tanking on sarth+3D, personally i prefer 1 imp judge 3/3 hotc 1/2 imp might, as benediction has no benefit and imp might has the possibility of one

I never understood why so many people think 2/2 imp judgement would throw off your rotation. It makes judgment available sooner than you need it, it doesn't force you to click it as soon as it's available.


they say that because they mash buttons, if the cooldown is exactly 9 seconds then you will always hit it on 9 seconds, reducing your need to count
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:44 am

You don't need to count, you just need to maintain your rotation.
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Postby Laz » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:57 am

If you're actually doing a 6969 rotation you won't be able to judge a second earlier because you'll still be in the GCD from your last 6. So no, 2/2 Imp Judgement does not throw off your rotation assuming you're actually doing it correctly.

I agree that having judgement off cooldown a second earlier is ideal in some situations, such as trash tanking or other mob pickup situations (sarth+3 was mentioned) and even offtanking or gimmick fights where you need more single target such as Spore Loser.

In any case, its better than putting 1 point in benediction. Neither selection is ideal, it's just that 2/2 Imp Judgement is the "least worst." :)
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Postby Selinaria » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:24 am

Getting 2/2 imp judgement is a good choice for some situations where threat/dps is a non-issue such as tanking adds on KT. Using judge on an 8 second CD in such a situation results in better LoO uptime.

I am leaning towards 2/2 judgement and 3/3 Heart of the Crusader to get to the next level of ret. (or maybe 2/2 imp might 1/3 benediction, 2/2 judgement so that imp might is available in low paladin scenarios)
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Postby Khayne » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:01 am

Laz wrote:The problem I have is with the insinuation on this forum that JotJ is somehow a required talent. There is a lot of handwaving that goes on around here to support this conclusion. I would argue that in 99% of cases in this expansion to date that you do NOT need JotJ and it ends up being 2 wasted talent points.


You can also very easily say you don't need full toughness either, or anticipation, to tank 100% of this expansion content.

And JotJ is much more damage reduction than either of them, and where do you really see so huge gain in threat to off-set that loss?

Sure, you can do without JotJ, especially if you can allways have someone else do that debuff for you.

But i really can't see any point in doing that.

"Awesome!, i do 6060 tps instead of 6000?

But ow, what's with this boss doing 17% more melee on me?"


I like fat crits as much as the next guy, but when people keep on claiming how zomg awesome their conviction spec is atm, it irritates me just like it seems JotJ irritates you.
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Postby Conaan! » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:20 am

Laz wrote:If you're actually doing a 6969 rotation you won't be able to judge a second earlier because you'll still be in the GCD from your last 6. So no, 2/2 Imp Judgement does not throw off your rotation assuming you're actually doing it correctly.

I agree that having judgement off cooldown a second earlier is ideal in some situations, such as trash tanking or other mob pickup situations (sarth+3 was mentioned) and even offtanking or gimmick fights where you need more single target such as Spore Loser.

In any case, its better than putting 1 point in benediction. Neither selection is ideal, it's just that 2/2 Imp Judgement is the "least worst." :)


imp might, beats them both when your running with 1-2 paladins, but if your doing the rotation, you could screw it up by having 1 second less judgements, i know when i had it and i tried the 969 i kept screwing it up hitting judgement before something else, imp might atleast allows situational outside of 2 encounters (sarth+3D/kt)

it all comes down to personal preference though
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Postby Healyurself » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:53 am

Have been away and now i remembered i made a post so basically gonna say Thanks to all and answer some stuff.

@ Girard-eredar yer i was thinking the same with Benediction but when you have a few other paladin tanks you talk with alot of them say the same crap going its good, or guild members going its awsome when tanking less mana use for your moves and then i slap them with the weak excuse of "yer but if am MTing then 2% mana each dodge,parry and miss is giving me more mana than i use so i should not worry (just being sure in a short way).
So SotP out and Conviction in if am getting Crusade with my last few points to Dorvans post. (ussally have my last 3 or 2 points in there anyway)

Thanks Meliaa for giving me a more accurate site for Talent

(reads though the Drake stuff)

Yer that 6969 is clear ... but yer i dont think 2 points in Imp Judge will throw you off, if you doing it right.
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Postby Healyurself » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:07 am

Making a page breaker and a new question, how is this specc.

www.war-tools.com/t61523.html?b=902z5c5 ... 5013105e3o

(can someone tell me how to make that link change it to something like "new tank specc" etc)
Take into account am raiding heroic, so Heroic Uldar think there and then and Immortal, Sarth +3Drakes and Maly 6mins.
Mainly i do not think Divinity is that useful as you have the +6% from Devotion arua, and am sure healers get +Healing on targets they heal or that druid arua gives some more. Or i also think having +5% healing on me more is pushing it abit more. Yes i will be surviving more, but then again it can also cause over healing?

Guarded by Light - I rarely use Divine Plea when am tanking cause of sanc and the 6% Spell Damage reduction is not a big life killer (think 2000 = 120 off that damage)

also gonna say i have 2 points in SotP + Conviction and Crusader. Is that a good point (minus the Survivability as i basically my main tanking specc) what i am asking this will roughly increase my TPS In a good way at the same time not effecting my chance of dieing (i think it is not but hey i need help)
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Postby Conaan! » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:01 pm

Healyurself wrote:Making a page breaker and a new question, how is this specc.

www.war-tools.com/t61523.html?b=902z5c5 ... 5013105e3o

(can someone tell me how to make that link change it to something like "new tank specc" etc)
Take into account am raiding heroic, so Heroic Uldar think there and then and Immortal, Sarth +3Drakes and Maly 6mins.
Mainly i do not think Divinity is that useful as you have the +6% from Devotion arua, and am sure healers get +Healing on targets they heal or that druid arua gives some more. Or i also think having +5% healing on me more is pushing it abit more. Yes i will be surviving more, but then again it can also cause over healing?

Guarded by Light - I rarely use Divine Plea when am tanking cause of sanc and the 6% Spell Damage reduction is not a big life killer (think 2000 = 120 off that damage)

also gonna say i have 2 points in SotP + Conviction and Crusader. Is that a good point (minus the Survivability as i basically my main tanking specc) what i am asking this will roughly increase my TPS In a good way at the same time not effecting my chance of dieing (i think it is not but hey i need help)


you grabbed imp HoJ instead of GbtL...... thats just wrong, we dont have anything against magic damage as it is, why take the one thing we have out?
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