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[Ret-PvE] ret gear and dps

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Postby majiben » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:21 pm

Yeah orange gems go in slots only if the socket bonus is a nice chunk of str.
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Re: ret gear and dps

Postby Baelor » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:37 pm

Dorvan wrote:As a last bit, I prefer Glyph of HoW over Glyph of CS. They both give back about the same mana, but with Gylph of HoW your mana consumption is steady throughout the whole fight...you don't wind up in a situation where you're suddenly going OOM at the end due to a high mana rotation.

http://e4ae.blogspot.com/2009/01/examin ... lyphs.html

The cost of Crusader Strike is 6% of the paladin's base mana, which at level 80 works out to 351 mana. With the glyph, the cost drops by 20% to 281 mana, saving 70 mana per strike.

Over a 5 minute fight, a paladin can do a maximum of 50 Crusader Strikes - that would be if the paladin used Crusader Strike on cooldown, every cooldown, with no interruption and no latency. Unglyphed, those 50 Crusader Strikes would cost 17,550 mana. With the glyph, however, those same 50 strikes would cost 14,050 mana - a savings of 3500 mana, half of a raid-buffed mana pool.

But wait! There are other glyphs to consider! What about Glyph of Hammer of Wrath? This glyph reduces Hammer of Wrath's mana cost by 100%, making it free to spam your Hamxecute. At 527 mana per Hammer, you only need to cast Hammer of Wrath 7 times to have the mana savings from this glyph surpass that of Glyph of Crusader Strike in a 5 minute fight. That would mean that the boss's under 20% phase would need to last about 45 seconds so that enough hammers could be thrown to get that much of a benefit - that's 15% of the total fight.

I'm not convinced that a boss would only die 5% faster with warriors Executing, paladins Hamxecuting, mages throwing Molten Fury-empowered spells, and everyone going "full burn." However, as the "under 20%" phase gets stretched out and the paladin can use Hammer of Wrath more and more, the scale tips toward Glyph of HoW. For every Hamxecute used, that's 527 mana saved, versus 70 mana per Crusader Strike with Glyph of CS. So, if you experience long-ish fights (be it because the boss has tons of health or your raid DPS is low), Glyph of HoW is better. But, if you burn down bosses quickly (be it because the boss has low HP or your raid is uber), Glyph of CS is better.


Bottom line - well geared raid, Glyph of CS (or Glyph of AW, but that's a different part of the discussion). Undergeared raid, Glyph of HoW.
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Postby Flex » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:47 pm

I've followed the path of not caring about hit but it still feels wrong. Everything from missing a JotW proc to lower special crit rate makes my mind scream "Get hit capped!"
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Re: ret gear and dps

Postby Dorvan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:59 pm

Baelor wrote:Bottom line - well geared raid, Glyph of CS (or Glyph of AW, but that's a different part of the discussion). Undergeared raid, Glyph of HoW.


Technically true, but the difference is minimal as far as I can tell, which is why I prefer HoW for the steadier rate of mana consumption, as well as it's advantages for trash/solo'ing.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:01 pm

Flex wrote:I've followed the path of not caring about hit but it still feels wrong. Everything from missing a JotW proc to lower special crit rate makes my mind scream "Get hit capped!"


Feel free to double check the math if you want, but that 1 in 50 Judgment you're missing at 2% below cap is more than made up for by the stronger blows you're getting from the other 49, not to mention all your other abilities. When push comes to shove, the DPS meter doesn't care about psychological effects.
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Postby daemonym » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:12 am

UPDATED!

after taking the great advice here i went around gobbling things up and filling out my set. i'm in my ret gear on armory atm, the spec will be altered soon to take DG and divine purpose and dropping the ret aura based talents (the other ret pally has all them so it's a waste for me unless he dies early).

went to the training dummy in org and pulled an even 2k dps with no cd's being used. my glyphs are CS, consecrate, judgment. i'm not using the HoW one because malygos won't ever get hit by it and that's why i'm going ret in the first place so yeah.

currently like 0.1% off hit cap which i'm not too worried about. still rocking 1 last piece of my tank gear (ring) which at least gives me some hit and strength.

still on a shoe string budget atm, so i'm stuck with +14 str gems rather than 16s and pvp shoulder/head enchants so my crit is short 30 rating (about .5% i think). i'm hoping for the ring from H nexus to replace my tank one, but other than that any more suggestions besides better enchants?
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Postby Flex » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:10 am

Dorvan wrote:the DPS meter doesn't care about psychological effects.


I know. Luckily my Ret is Draenei so I have a bit of a buffer there.

Question, Were those models for Ret DPS using Consecrate with the 17% miss rate per tick?
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Postby Baelor » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:38 pm

daemonym wrote:UPDATED!

after taking the great advice here i went around gobbling things up and filling out my set. i'm in my ret gear on armory atm, the spec will be altered soon to take DG and divine purpose and dropping the ret aura based talents (the other ret pally has all them so it's a waste for me unless he dies early).

went to the training dummy in org and pulled an even 2k dps with no cd's being used. my glyphs are CS, consecrate, judgment. i'm not using the HoW one because malygos won't ever get hit by it and that's why i'm going ret in the first place so yeah.

currently like 0.1% off hit cap which i'm not too worried about. still rocking 1 last piece of my tank gear (ring) which at least gives me some hit and strength.

still on a shoe string budget atm, so i'm stuck with +14 str gems rather than 16s and pvp shoulder/head enchants so my crit is short 30 rating (about .5% i think). i'm hoping for the ring from H nexus to replace my tank one, but other than that any more suggestions besides better enchants?

Aside from a DPS ring (I recommend Ruthlessness, Circle of Death for non-currency cost ones, or the Valor token ring if you want it right now)...

Get a better weapon - Death's Bite, Black Ice, or any 2H from Naxx-25
Run heroic Nexus and get the belt from Keristrasza
Shoulders are tough, but anything from Naxx is better
If you have other trinket options open to you aside from Incisor Fragment, let us know and we might be able to point you at a better one.
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Postby daemonym » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:39 pm

Baelor wrote:Aside from a DPS ring (I recommend Ruthlessness, Circle of Death for non-currency cost ones, or the Valor token ring if you want it right now)...

Get a better weapon - Death's Bite, Black Ice, or any 2H from Naxx-25
Run heroic Nexus and get the belt from Keristrasza
Shoulders are tough, but anything from Naxx is better
If you have other trinket options open to you aside from Incisor Fragment, let us know and we might be able to point you at a better one.


ya since ret is my off spec, i don't get priority over our other ret pally and dk's for 2h awesomeness, jst got this because they had better. and i looked around on wowhead for shoulders last night and these were the best i can get pre raid that i found. and the only other trinket i have for dps is the +hit trinket from nexus (sphere of red dragon's blood i think). any others i can get outside of naxx that would be an upgrade from the incisor frag, maybe the pvp one from winter grasp marks? not sure how it works with that+mirror of truth. also, is the belt from nexus really that much better than the one i got on now?

and i don't have any valors as they all go towards tank gear. again, just running ret for malygos until we get a solid kill on him at which point i'll be taking a different toon to dps there (the other tank doesn't have a second geared 80 or solid dps set yet).
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Postby Wartorne » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:34 am

What is the Min amount of hit required in a 25man raid scenario? I think i usually run somewhere in the 240's and don't really see any misses. My problem right now is deciding on using the 4pc bonus from my heroes set or use a couple 25 man pieces that i have picked up. My current crit is around 31.8% un buffed and if i ditch my four piece bonus i could get that up to around 34.5%.

i've read in EJ forums that the 4pc bonus is a 3% damage increase that increases with the quality of your gear. i'm just wondering at what point would it be better to go with items that have more crit/ap and less haste then the set items. I'm pulling good dps right now i'm usually top 5 in 25 man's but i want more haha.

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Postby majiben » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:21 am

0%

You'll likely have more and that's good. But for ret paladins being below the hit cap will increase dps in many cases. Don't overvalue or undervalue hit.
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Postby Dorvan » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:40 am

It should also be noted that the optimal gear set up at the moment does include 4pT7.25, so the answer to your question about when to swap out tier pieces is "not until 3.1". The best set-ups are Chest/Legs/Shoulders/Hands + Obsidian Greathelm (Spiked Titansteel is a good stepping stone) or Chest/Legs/Head/Shoulders + Frost Adroit Handguards (leather piece from Maly25).

Oh, and from earlier:

Flex wrote:Question, Were those models for Ret DPS using Consecrate with the 17% miss rate per tick?


Yes, they do. Even if you double-counted the effect of consecration it wouldn't matter though: Str is 1.5X as effective as Hit, a gap that's not going to be made up without a major change to mechanics of some sort.
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Postby Dread » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:29 am

I was under the impression that Glyph of Cons did increase the length (and CD) of Cons by 2 seconds, but that the overall damage done by Cons during that time remained the same. Ie. you got 2 extra ticks, but each tick hit for less than Cons unglyphed. Am I mistaken or was this changed?
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Postby Baelor » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:22 am

Dread wrote:I was under the impression that Glyph of Cons did increase the length (and CD) of Cons by 2 seconds, but that the overall damage done by Cons during that time remained the same. Ie. you got 2 extra ticks, but each tick hit for less than Cons unglyphed. Am I mistaken or was this changed?

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Mana cost stays constant.
Duration, damage, and cooldown increase.
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Postby AusDante » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:27 pm

Hi,

I have recently (2 days ago) gone to ret spec from prot.
Could I get some advice on my gear please. I have gotten lot of gear already, but still need shoulders and to replace my tank ring.

Could you all please let me know what to get next?

My guild is currently in 10 man naxx (we are doing spider and plague still)
and I plan to try pug some 25 man naxx and OS each week.

I also run 10 and 25 man VoA each week.

Based on our last naxx run, I was pushing around 2k ish in DPS.

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