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5/5 Divinity

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:57 pm

I've seen a large chunk of proposed builds that do not include all five points. Now, I'll agree that it's not as good as avoidance, or whatever, but I'd still rank it above threat talents like Crusade.

Think about it. Sure, 1% damage is good, but 1% healing is at least as valuable. It's not like we're hurting for threat.

Does anyone disagree? I'm kind of curious if there's reasoning I'm missing here.
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Postby majiben » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:59 pm

More dps is always useful, more healing is not.
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Postby Wolvar » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:18 pm

Majiben wrote:More dps is always useful, more healing is not.


Silly reason. Especially given you continuously argue against those that say "more dps is always useful, more mitigation is not". (a la JOTJ, GBTL, etc.)


Anyway... to answer the question:

The *real* reason is that it's one of those non-visible, intangible talents that nobody is going to actually "see" benefit from. So nobody likes it.

Every other reason (that I've seen) is just self-justification for the above.
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Postby majiben » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:27 pm

My statement is true. More dps is always useful. More mitigation, avoidance, threat and healing is not always useful. However, mitigation and avoidance are are not going to be capped against raid bosses. Threat capping is not an issue for most but does have the potential to be in the future and in a few specialty cases currently. HPS are not an issue in any situation currently And have almost no chance of becoming an issue in the future.
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Postby Wolvar » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:31 pm

The ability to increase a pallies' heals by 10% is ridiculously good. The fact that it reflects on the healers and not the tank is what will prevent most from getting it.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:35 pm

Wolvar wrote:The ability to increase a pallies' heals by 10% is ridiculously good. The fact that it reflects on the healers and not the tank is what will prevent most from getting it.


Did they change it from 5 to 10? Either way, I don't think I'd call it ridiculously good. Part of the problem of not being able to see it, is because the advantage is so slight as to not be perceptible.
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Postby Wolvar » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:40 pm

it's 5% ON you and 5% BY you. So a holy pally, who would be kinda silly not to take it, gets double benefit on a pally tank.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:45 pm

Wolvar wrote:it's 5% ON you and 5% BY you. So a holy pally, who would be kinda silly not to take it, gets double benefit on a pally tank.


However, whether they take it is independent of whether you take it. For the purposes of analyzing its effectiveness, it's 1% healing per talent point. Likewise, a Holy Paladin doesn't get any more benefit from their Divinity when healing a Paladin than when healing anyone else.

That said, my real objection has nothing to do with anyone's WWS report, but on the effectiveness of 1% heal as compared to 1% avoidance of 1% health for survivability.
Last edited by Dorvan on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:46 pm

Wolvar wrote:it's 5% ON you and 5% BY you. So a holy pally, who would be kinda silly not to take it, gets double benefit on a pally tank.


Well he gets 5% on everyone he heals, so it's still only a 5% increase in healing on us. You only get 10% when you have the talent and you heal yourself, which isn't particularly effective while tanking.
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Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:46 pm

Well, look at it from a healer's perspective. +5% healing on the tank only. I would expect most healers to spec this; why wouldn't the tank?

Compare 1% healing to 1% damage. 1% damage is maybe 20 DPS. HPS isn't an issue? I'm a little surprised to hear that. I do tend to die every now and again. It's not that I need the extra healing, it's that the healer can spend more time keeping the raid alive.

I would argue that the damage increase would only be more useful once you already outgear the content. Or you're four-manning the new Heigan, whoever he may be (looking forward to that).

I'm pretty sure it's a 5% talent, not a 10% talent. Though if you factor in Improved Auras (which is getting a nice buff) that brings it to 11% if you don't have a tree.

edit: 1% to 10% in last paragraph, typo
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Postby DanimalEQ » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:58 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Well, look at it from a healer's perspective. +5% healing on the tank only. I would expect most healers to spec this; why wouldn't the tank?


Because it is the healers job to heal, and the tanks job to survive. Thus, the mitigation / avoidance talents help us do our job. The healing talent helps your healers do their job. Though as a tank, since healers are already overhealing us by quite a bit, this will only add to that, as they likely won't wait for us to be 5% lower on health before starting that big heal.

That said, I can see this talent being helpful if you are a newer tank, without the avoidance / mitigation brought about by grinding Heroics / Naxx, etc. Also, if you happen to run with under-geared healers, it can help them keep you alive.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:02 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Well, look at it from a healer's perspective. +5% healing on the tank only. I would expect most healers to spec this; why wouldn't the tank?

Compare 1% healing to 1% damage. 1% damage is maybe 20 DPS. HPS isn't an issue? I'm a little surprised to hear that. I do tend to die every now and again. It's not that I need the extra healing, it's that the healer can spend more time keeping the raid alive.

I would argue that the damage increase would only be more useful once you already outgear the content. Or you're four-manning the new Heigan, whoever he may be (looking forward to that).

I'm pretty sure it's a 5% talent, not a 10% talent. Though if you factor in Improved Auras (which is getting a nice buff) that brings it to 11% if you don't have a tree.

edit: 1% to 10% in last paragraph, typo


You can't include the aura, you'd have that whether you have this talent or not. There's nothing wrong with 5% more healing, and we are talking about a tier 1 talent, so it's obviously not going to be anything really powerful. I can see why folks would skip it though.
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Postby Conaan! » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:26 pm

Wolvar wrote:
Majiben wrote:More dps is always useful, more healing is not.


Silly reason. Especially given you continuously argue against those that say "more dps is always useful, more mitigation is not". (a la JOTJ, GBTL, etc.)


Anyway... to answer the question:

The *real* reason is that it's one of those non-visible, intangible talents that nobody is going to actually "see" benefit from. So nobody likes it.

Every other reason (that I've seen) is just self-justification for the above.


JotJ reduces damage taken over-all, GbtL reduces the damage you take over-all, for divinity to be useful you have to survive the hit, then be healed, therefore it is of less use, and just like one of the major drawbacks to LoH, its reactive not proactive

besides, your getting topped up alot, checked the overheal meter and see, alot of heals are just overheal, divinity is adding to that with no real benefit, whereas you could increase your dps by a margin to reduce the fight length
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:48 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Well, look at it from a healer's perspective. +5% healing on the tank only. I would expect most healers to spec this; why wouldn't the tank?

Compare 1% healing to 1% damage. 1% damage is maybe 20 DPS. HPS isn't an issue? I'm a little surprised to hear that. I do tend to die every now and again. It's not that I need the extra healing, it's that the healer can spend more time keeping the raid alive.

I would argue that the damage increase would only be more useful once you already outgear the content. Or you're four-manning the new Heigan, whoever he may be (looking forward to that).

I'm pretty sure it's a 5% talent, not a 10% talent. Though if you factor in Improved Auras (which is getting a nice buff) that brings it to 11% if you don't have a tree.

edit: 1% to 10% in last paragraph, typo


Ok, so responding to a few points:

-- Part of the problem is the from a healing perspective, 1% healing for one talent point is pretty weak. Most +healing talents are 2-3% per point. Also, for Holy they're trading off against Sanctified Seals, and honestly many if not most will happily take 1% crit over 1% healing. Not only does crit provide additional regen, it's also more likely to be a "deal breaker" as far as saving someone. At any rate, don't take my word for it, check out elitistjerks or plusheal.com: 51/0/18+2 looks like it's still most favored by Healadins for 3.1 atm.

-- Going off of that, the problem with a small +heal boost is that you've got a fairly narrow set of circumstances where it makes any difference, even compared to other small advantages. It doesn't help you survive spikes, but rather has a benefit in recovering from spikes. So suppose a spike has just happen. If you get a small heal (say 2k or so), you're only getting an additional 100 health, an extremely marginal difference with a very low chance of making a life/death difference. If you take a large heal, the extra healing is much larger, but you're unlikely to die from the next hit, so that healing will most certainly wind up as overhealing for the next heal that lands to top you off.

In a world without downranking, haste and crit are far more important than +heal for tank survivability.
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Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:03 pm

Cool. Okay, I can definitely see both sides to this, then.

Either way it's not a terribly big decision I guess.
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