Help with Tanking Talents on Patch 3.1

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Help with Tanking Talents on Patch 3.1

Postby Healyurself » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:44 am

I have made a talent specc up for Uldar Patch, i know it might not be the talent tree that will come out in Uldar patch, still a while to change it (and the helm to our T8 ) but mainly i wanted to know as an OT (prefer it over MT due to the way i am specced at the moment.)

MT/OT
talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=050000000000000000000000005005352031523133301232150100000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9626

Sorry for the long Paste, but do not know how to shorten it down, as i have roughly 7 points to play with in this talent specc and i like taking Divine Guardian as a MT/OT Build, but what i am wondering is this:
*Is it worth taking Improved Hammer of Justice for an extra 20seconds off the CD on top of the 20seconds already took off from Judgement of the Just.
*Is it worth taking Touched By the Light worth taking as seals now scale with AP as well, and mainly everything has Strength what i really want to know do the both Stack? If not, then is it worth taking it for the +30% Extra Healing from Critical Heals?
* If i do take those two talents, then where do i put my last 2 points? Is it worth putting it into Benediction/ Heart of the Crusader or Improved BOM?

I am confused on the new talent rearrange and how i now need to take reckoning as a talent to get the talents i require at the bottom of the tier (thank god for Expertise at its required value if its 6.5%.)

Help and Advice will be helpful.
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Postby Girard-eredar » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:44 pm

*Is it worth taking Improved Hammer of Justice for an extra 20seconds off the CD on top of the 20seconds already took off from Judgement of the Just.


Hm, depends really. Are you still doing dailies, or 5mans and what not? Generally most mobs are immune to stun and in a raid setting you should have enough interrupters to the point of it not being a huge deal. I personally like it.


*Is it worth taking Touched By the Light worth taking as seals now scale with AP as well, and mainly everything has Strength what i really want to know do the both Stack? If not, then is it worth taking it for the +30% Extra Healing from Critical Heals?


Yes, just about all, if not all, of our abilities(except heals) double dip from AP and SP. So it helps with threat as well as makes your heals stronger. With 3.1 DP being up all the time it will allow for healing yourself to full when OOC. That said, given how threat is really high anyways, it might be possible to not take it and still have no threat issues. Again, I personally would take it.


* If i do take those two talents, then where do i put my last 2 points? Is it worth putting it into Benediction/ Heart of the Crusader or Improved BOM?


Benediction is largely worthless (or so I am lead to believe by the more active members of this site, and they are usually right). I put points into HotC cuase our ret pally has become scarce as of late. Imp BoM should be picked up by your holy pallies, but if you have no holy pallies it "might" (akakakaka) be useful.


I also saw you put points into SotP. I believe math has been done to show that conviction in ret is hight TPS, though for 3.1 there was some talk of a possble change to something that would make SotP worthwhile, but i dont think that went thought.
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Re: Help with Tanking Talents on Patch 3.1

Postby Meliaa » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:07 pm

Healyurself wrote:
I am confused on the new talent rearrange and how i now need to take reckoning as a talent to get the talents i require at the bottom of the tier (thank god for Expertise at its required value if its 6.5%.)


This is a bug in the MMOChampion talent calculator. On the PTR there are no new prerequisites for talents.

Here is a link to a working talent calculator, http://www.war-tools.com/t61523.html.
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:12 pm

Girard-eredar wrote:I also saw you put points into SotP. I believe math has been done to show that conviction in ret is hight TPS, though for 3.1 there was some talk of a possble change to something that would make SotP worthwhile, but i dont think that went thought.


Conviction is slightly higher dps, but SotP is ahead for tps. However, Crusade is far more threat per point than SotP, and so many builds for 3.1 grab Conviction on the way to Crusade as a bonus (for a 0/53/18 build).
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Postby Wolvar » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:04 pm

yeah, 3.1 is going to put sotp in the graveyard alongside reckoning.
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Postby Vrimmel » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:59 pm

hasnt sotp been in the GY all the time? crit/crusade ftw
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Postby majiben » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:11 pm

If you're using conviction now you're gimping your threat. If you're getting crusade now you're most certainly gimping your survival.
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Postby heinz » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:02 pm

Seems to me 3 point in crusade will be optimal.

My build so far looks like this:

Protection: Total 53 points

Tire 1 (9 points)
Divinity - Rank 4/5
Increase healing and heals received by 4%

Divine Strength - Rank 5/5
Increases your total Strength by 15%.

Tire 2 (5 points) {14 points total}
Anticipation - Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to dodge by 5%.

Tire 3 (8 points) {22 points total}
Improved Righteous Fury - Rank 3/3
While Righteous Fury is active, all damage taken is reduced by 6%.

Toughness - Rank 5/5
Increases your armor value from items by 10% and reduces the duration of all movement slowing effects by 30%.

Tire 4 (3 points) {25 points total}
Improved Devotion Aura - Rank 3/3
Increases the armor bonus of your Devotion Aura by 50% and increases the amount healed on any target affected by any of your Auras by 6%.

Tire 5 (1 points) {26 points total}
Blessing of Sanctuary - Rank 1/1
Places a Blessing on the friendly target, reducing damage taken from all sources by 3% for 10 min. In addition, when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack the target will gain 2% of maximum displayed mana. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.

Tire 6 (5 points) {31 points total}
Sacred Duty - Rank 2/2
Increases your total Stamina by 8%, reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield and Divine Protection spells by 60 sec.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization - Rank 3/3
Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 10%.

Tire 7 (4 points) {35 points total}
Holy Shield - Rank 1/1
Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec and deals 274 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Each block expends a charge. 8 charges.

Ardent Defender - Rank 3/3
When you have less than 35% health, all damage taken is reduced by 30%.

Tire 8 (6 points) {40 points total}
Redoubt - Rank 3/3
Increases your block value by 30% and damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 30%. Lasts 10 sec or 5 blocks.

Combat Expertise - Rank 3/3
Increases your expertise by 6, total Stamina and chance to critically hit by 6%.

Tire 9 (6 points) {46 points total}
Touched by the Light - Rank 3/3
Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 30% of your Stamina and increases the amount healed by your critical heals by 30%.

Avenger's Shield - Rank 1/1
Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 1100.14 to 1344.14 Holy damage, Dazing them and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Affects 3 total targets. Lasts 10 sec.

Guarded by the Light - Rank 2/2
Reduces spell damage taken by 6% and gives a 100% chance to refresh the duration of your Divine Plea when you hit an enemy.

Tire 10 (5 points) {51 points total}
Shield of the Templar - Rank 3/3
Reduces all damage taken by 3% and grants your Avenger's Shield a 100% chance to silence your targets for 3 sec.

Judgements of the Just - Rank 2/2
Reduces the cooldown of your Hammer of Justice by 20 sec, increases the duration of your Seal of Justice effect by 1 sec and your Judgement spells also reduce the melee attack speed of the target by 20%.

Tire 10 (1 point) {52 points total}
Hammer of the Righteous - Rank 1/1
Hammer the current target and up to 2 additional nearby targets, causing 4 times your main hand damage per second as Holy damage.



Retribution
Retribution (18 points)

Tire 1 (9 points) {9 points total}
Deflection - Rank 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Benediction - Rank 4/5
Reduces the mana cost of all instant cast spells by 8%.

Tire 2 (1 point) {10 points total}
Improved Judgements - Rank 1/2
Decreases the cooldown of your Judgement spells by 1 sec.

Tire 3 (5 points) {15 points total}
Conviction - Rank 3/5
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with all spells and attacks by 3%.

Pursuit of Justice - Rank 2/2
Reduces the duration of all Disarm effects by 50% and increases movement and mounted movement speed by 15%. This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects.


Tire 4 (3 points) {18 points total}
Crusade - Rank 3/3
Increases all damage caused by 3% and all damage caused against Humanoids, Demons, Undead and Elementals by an additional 3%.

It is my opinion that this is the optimal survival threat build.

Notes: Are raid parties consist of interrupters and ret paladins always. If you don't have a ret paladin use heart of the crusader instead of benediction. Also if you are needed to interrupt you'll have to take points out of something for improved Hammer of Righteousness. 1% healing done just doesn't compare in my mind to crusader. That 1% won't be enough to keep you alive. Healers don't have problems keeping us topped off and 3.1 shouldn't be any different.

Note: 1 minute cool down on divine protection is going to be awesome.

Divine protection talented is now on a 2 minute cool-down for 50% damage reduction... Here's hoping for a way to make that 1 minute.
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Postby knaughty » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:11 pm

Vrimmel wrote:hasnt sotp been in the GY all the time? crit/crusade ftw

Not in 3.0

If you're specced Crusade in 3.0, you're not specced full tanking. This is fine if you're farming easy stuff with too many healers in your group. It is not fine if you're doing hard content. NB: There is hard content in 3.0 - otherwise everyone would have 310% speed drakes. Note that no one on my server has achieved Glory of the Raider, normal or heroic.

In 3.1, 0/53/18 is currently a viable build, but the protection tree looks severely underweight & unfinished.
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Postby Korimoor » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:15 pm

This will be my build a 53/18 variation of some of the above builds.

http://www.war-tools.com/t61523.html?b= ... 300302003o

For me, I prefer the 20 second HoJ and DG. I MT/OT for my guild so it's nice to have DG up. Also I can wait to get PoJ.

// edit: I MAY take the 2 points from iHoJ and put them in conviction for a 0/51/20 build. Dunno yet

//edit 2.0 nevermind....that isnt possible so I will stick to my original post of 0/53/18
Last edited by Korimoor on Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Laz » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:20 pm

That's not true, Knaughty. The only thing you really have to give up is JotJ and, depending on your raid configuration, that isn't required anyway. The choice between JotJ and not certainly isn't preventing anyone from achieving Glory of the Raider.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:40 am

Laz wrote:That's not true, Knaughty. The only thing you really have to give up is JotJ and, depending on your raid configuration, that isn't required anyway. The choice between JotJ and not certainly isn't preventing anyone from achieving Glory of the Raider.


Did 6-min-maly-10-man last night. Was no one in the raid to put attack-speed-debuff up for me.

It is also unusual for there to be someone to put up on drakes in Sarth+3-10-man, other than the tank.

25-man, you can design around it... by why would you?

Anyway, old argument is old, and moot right now. 53-54 points in prot gets you pretty much everything. 56 is you decide you want Imp. HoJ or nerfed DG, and still want +5% healing received.
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Postby Laz » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:49 pm

See, I would argue that for 6 min Malygos, especially on 10 man, you should have gone with the max dps/tps spec. You don't even need the debuff for Malygos 10 at our gear level.

I normally tank whelps + elems on Sarth 10/25+3 and I don't think lack of a single mob slow is saving anyone. If I were tanking drakes that might be more valid, but you can still only slow 1. Melee slow doesn't do anything to mitigate drake breaths, either.

Obviously the spec will be more common in 3.1, but give it a shot on your next Naxx 25 before you pass judgement on it (har har). I've ran everything both ways and I don't feel like I'm giving up anything considerable. If the gain was marginal it would be different. The upside is huge, though.
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Postby sahiel » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:03 pm

Laz wrote: If I were tanking drakes that might be more valid, but you can still only slow 1.

Not true, 20 second duration, 9 second CD on judgment, when you have 2 drakes you can alternate between them and keep the 20% speed debuff active on both, and at the points you're tanking two drakes you certainly should be doing this imo to cut down on damage.
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Postby Laz » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:05 pm

Well, that is a valid argument. But, that still doesn't change the fact that you're nitpicking to find validity. I could also argue that with sufficient DPS you won't be able to spare the TPS to judge the second target. See how easy that was? Also, you could simply have a warrior tank the drakes while you cover the adds. Before you respond to this hypothetical realize that we could trade back and forth with countless scenarios where one spec is better than the other.

The problem I have is with the insinuation on this forum that JotJ is somehow a required talent. There is a lot of handwaving that goes on around here to support this conclusion. I would argue that in 99% of cases in this expansion to date that you do NOT need JotJ and it ends up being 2 wasted talent points.

All of this could change in 3.1 and I will certainly be erring on the side of caution as we delve into Ulduar. A prime situation that would warrant JotJ is extended offtanking in a large area, such as in Fathom Lord or the Illidari Council. If there are similar encounters in Ulduar, you will want to have JotJ.

Maybe what they should do is take JotJ and move it down to replace reckoning. :)
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