[Ret-PvE] ret gear and dps

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[Ret-PvE] ret gear and dps

Postby daemonym » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:05 am

Thread title moderated in accordance with sticky guidelines -Baelor

so for my guilds runs on malygos i'll be speccing ret and went through a pair of heroics last night to see what my dps was like. and it was bad. my armory link is in my sig. as for the gear i'm wearing, the neck will be replaced by a proper dps neck today (10 emblems away) and still trying for the dps rings in nexus and gundrak and will have my titansteel faceroller made in a few days and will have a belt buckle tonight along with 3x JC strength gems to replace the crappy purple gems (only there for the meta). and can't afford DMC: greatness just yet, broke with 4/8 cards atm.

however my single target dps in my current gear is 1400 if i'm pushing it, usually only 1350 sustained. i'm currently prioritizing DS (for libram crit bonus) > [hammer of wrath if able] > judgment > CS > consecrate. the glyphs i have (in case armory doesn't show them) are CS, SoB, and judgment. it also seems that my crit % is way out of proportion to my AP, thoughts? does 1400 seem about right for my current gear or am i just doin' it wrong? also what do you think my dps will be like once i get the upgrades i mentioned? trying to break 2k dps for malygos else i'll be seriously holding back the raid with dps that low in a fight that's a dps race.
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Postby Shoju » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:07 am

EDIT: Here is my breakdown based on your gear and what you said about rotation and what not.


A few things.

1.) Don't EVER GEM FOR HIT as a Ret paladin. You can lightly enchant for it, but the goal is really to get to 220 ish. If you get there, you can use food to get the rest of the way.

2.) I understand that you are prioritizing for the crit off of the libram. DON'T. on Single Target you always prioritize Judgement. You get bonus crit chance on judgement from spec, and the uptime from putting DS later into your rotation will mean that only your first Judgement should be without the bonus Crit. On Single target your Priority should be:

[hammer if up] - Judge -[exorcism if avail] - Ds - Cs - consecrate - [Holy Wrath if avail]

3.) I wouldn't worry about getting the DMC if you are just getting it for ret. If you are getting it for tanking, that's fine, but you can maximize your gear in other ways besides trinket.

4.) If anything, your crit is a little low, but that's because of the tank pieces you are sporting. When I was still gearing up in heroic with a couple of naxx pieces, I was sporting almost 30% crit.

5.) I would be inclined to say that you are doing something wrong if you are only pushing 1400 dps. But, what buffs did you have when you are pushing that? If you are solo in the world pushing that, you will be able to put up better numbers than that in a dungeon. I normally only put out 2200-2500 in the world, but 3700-4k in a 10 man.

Remember that the spere of dragon's blood has an on use.


If you can upgrade the gems to shed the Hit gems, get a new neck, better rings, and a new weapon, you can probably get close to 2k if not 2k. You will probably just need some time to familiarize yourself with the ret style as well.

Also remember that the enchanted tear is a STELLAR gem for matching socket color on a piece of gear. As a JC I know that you have the D.EYE gems. I don't know if you can stack a tear with that or not. When I got my new helm I tossed a tear in it, as I felt the 6 to stats would server me better than a 8str 12 sta gem would.

Now, Here is my gear breakdown. don't take this as me being a tool or something, I'm just going to lay it out there and tell it like it is. I'm not bashing you or your choices. I was in a similar mindset to you when I went ret.







Head: It's an ok head, and will do the job just fine if you are doing this as off spec.

You DO NOT NEED the yellow hit gem. You need 264 Hit rating as a ret paladin to be hit capped, and you can get 40 of that off food. I personally would ditch that for a Bold Scarlet Ruby or Bold Bloodstone.


Neck:

You said you were picking up a DPS Piece, no problems there.

Shoulders: They are acceptable Shoulders, though that enchant on them is meh at best. If you can afford to, I would change the enchant to the honored Sons of Hodir Lesser inscription of the Axe.

CLoak:

That cape is meh at best. If you can afford it (or make it your self) the Ice Strikers cape is crafted and a better cape. Even better still is the Cape of Bloodied Waters (or feathers) From H:Gundrak.

CHest:

T7 Chest, acceptable enchant, Acceptable Gemming. Would love to see another Scarlet Ruby, but this is off spec.

BRacers:

BEst in 10 man Slot bracers. You could possibly upgrade the enchant, but nothing horrid.

Hands:

t7 gloves. Good Gloves. Acceptable Enchant. Crusher is a lot of gold, and you said you were broke.

Belt:

The belt is acceptbale. I would make sure to get the buckle like you said.

Legs:

Great legs. AWESOME LEGS. Gemmed Horridly. Drop that hit gem like it's going out of style.

Boots:

Go to Knights of the Ebon Blade and Buy the Death Insured Sabatons. For 10 man content, they are Best in Slot. They also have a blue gem, which you can match to get more hit rating naturally and stop gemming for it. Icewalker on the new boots as well.

Ring:

Earthguard ring is actually up there on the list of rings for DPS, but not with the gem. Ring of Scarlet Shadows is a spectacular ring.

Trinkets: are fine.

Weapon: I would also run H:HoL for a chance at the cleaver. Either that or the weapon from BS-ing are fine.
Last edited by Shoju on Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ret gear and dps

Postby Baelor » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:17 am

daemonym wrote:so for my guilds runs on malygos i'll be speccing ret and went through a pair of heroics last night to see what my dps was like. and it was bad. my armory link is in my sig. as for the gear i'm wearing, the neck will be replaced by a proper dps neck today (10 emblems away) and still trying for the dps rings in nexus and gundrak and will have my titansteel faceroller made in a few days and will have a belt buckle tonight along with 3x JC strength gems to replace the crappy purple gems (only there for the meta). and can't afford DMC: greatness just yet, broke with 4/8 cards atm.

however my single target dps in my current gear is 1400 if i'm pushing it, usually only 1350 sustained. i'm currently prioritizing DS (for libram crit bonus) > [hammer of wrath if able] > judgment > CS > consecrate. the glyphs i have (in case armory doesn't show them) are CS, SoB, and judgment. it also seems that my crit % is way out of proportion to my AP, thoughts? does 1400 seem about right for my current gear or am i just doin' it wrong? also what do you think my dps will be like once i get the upgrades i mentioned? trying to break 2k dps for malygos else i'll be seriously holding back the raid with dps that low in a fight that's a dps race.

http://e4ae.blogspot.com/2008/12/wrath- ... t-faq.html
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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:19 am

short version:
- too much hit (since you are using hit only gems)
- str > ap, see your gems in your shoulders and legs. you are going to replace these with dragon eyes. but still, using ap gems is just wrong
- think twice what socket boni you really want. the bonus of 9 stamina won't help help you dps-wise
- you already mentioned that you are broke, but the titan steel helmet should be affordable
- lw enchant on bracers

1400 dps seems to be low to me, with your current gear.
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Postby lythac » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:20 am

Hit cap for melee is 8%, you're gemming past it. Also with the titansteel you are going to be way over cap.

Your rings worry me a bit, as you'll be forced to take off tanking ring anyway due to gem and the +hit ring will only be giving you strength. [Signet of Bridenbrad], Is worth looking to get as its a definite to get (as you've only done 13 quests in Icecrown and this is number 13 of a chain it should be open for you still).

[Cloak of Bloodied Waters] if you can find it on the AH.

Think your dps looks reasonable for your gear level.

Edit - dps looks reasonable for a 5 man, though depends on what buffs you were getting.
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Postby Shoju » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:38 am

Hey Baelor chimed in. Feel free to ignore my post and do what he says if what I say conflicts with what he says.

Baelor > most other ret paladins.
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Postby majiben » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:43 am

Yeah don't eat hit food. If it's not good enough to gem for it is still not good enough to eat.
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Postby Baelor » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:49 am

Shoju wrote:Hey Baelor chimed in. Feel free to ignore my post and do what he says if what I say conflicts with what he says.

Baelor > most other ret paladins.

All your stuff was good Shoju, except your rotation recommendation.

Judge > (Hammer of Wrath) > CS > DS > Consecration > (Exorcism) > (Holy Wrath)

Throw something in between Judge and CS to prevent cooldowns clashing. I also usually lead with a CS to get that on cooldown before Judgement and avoid a clash on my first cycle.

The above is not hard-and-fast, it's merely a priority system when things are coming off cooldown at the same time.

Everything else lines up with what I say in the link I posted.

EDIT: Oh, and what Majiben said about hit food. Yea, just stack str/AP.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:33 am

Yeah, there is no target hit value, aside from not wanting to over over 262 (or is it 263? I forget). My hit has varied anywhere from 160 to 250, and not necessarily strictly increasing over time either.
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Postby Shoju » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:18 pm

I will admit that I might prioritize hit more than I should. I had some bad experiences when I was an up and coming ret paladin in raiding situations because of my poor hit (end of TBC)

Because of seeing all the misses in the WWS in BT, I try to reach hit cap whenever possible. Now that I'm pretty firmly at hit cap, I'm looking at expertise pieces when looking at upgrades (in the content I'm raiding there is only one expertise upgrade - Saph's Ring)

CS first? I will have to try that. Never thought about changing that to get the clang out of the rotation. I normally just went with it, and stayed with the priorities when multiple things came up.

Anyone know how hard 4pc t7 makes that? I have been doing the math, and it would seem that getting another second off judges is going to be a decent DPS increase. Is it going to make the CD's conflict more?
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:24 pm

Basically, you use the priority system Baelor described, with the caveat he noted that if you've just judged and both CS and DS or Cons are off cooldown, Cons/DS before CS. I don't recommend opening with CS personally, I generally open Judge -> DS -> CS (though Cons might be better than DS for me, I need to check my numbers again).
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Re: ret gear and dps

Postby daemonym » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:03 pm

Baelor wrote:http://e4ae.blogspot.com/2008/12/wrath- ... t-faq.html
Read, digest, and then come back with questions.


i did, i have, i am.

Q: What major glyphs should I use?
A: Glyph of Judgement and Glyph of Consecration for sure. For the 3rd major glyph spot, take your pick of Glyph of Avenging Wrath, Glyph of Hammer of Wrath, and Glyph of Crusader Strike.


for the third i went with crusader strike as i will be going ret 90% of the time for malygos (can't hammer of wrath at all there) and the rest of the time in random heroics where HoW rarely gets used more than 2-4 times per boss and maybe once on trash pulls.

Meta = Relentless Earthsiege Diamond.


why not the 21 crit rating 3% crit damage meta?

1 Strength
2 Hit (to 8%, or ~262 rating)
3 Expertise (to 6.5%, or ~214 rating before racials - get to 26 expertise skill)


may just be personal annoyance, but i would really like a lot more exp. on my gear than i currently have (almost none). i am constantly seeing dodged skills and if i happen to be in front of a mob or enough to the side for it to 'count' as in front i see just as many parrys. is there a certain % i want to aim for before all out strength or just take expertise as it comes and don't gem/enchant it anywhere?

There is also Glyph of Seal of Blood,


glad i read this as i thought it was additive like the SA glyph was. i'll def be dropping this one when i get home tonight. i'll replace it with consecrate, but still would like to know the reason why (not contesting you, as i'm taking your advice regardless, just want to know the mechanics behind it).

EDIT: if possible, i'd also like to know how much hit is worth how much of a sacrifice in strength assuming in teetering on the verge of hit cap vs. non capped.

EDIT 2:
Majiben wrote:For non JCs the crit meta will cause you to lose dps due to it's hard meta requirements. The consecration meta is a nice dps increase for ret because it will have higher uptime (they don't have 100% uptime with an 8 second CD).


i'll be hitting the crit rating meta req in 2 days once i get more dragon eyes from dailys. and so the consecrate glyph is to keep it running while you go through higher priority skills?
Last edited by daemonym on Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby majiben » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:08 pm

For non JCs the crit meta will cause you to lose dps due to it's hard meta requirements. The consecration meta is a nice dps increase for ret because it will have higher uptime (they don't have 100% uptime with an 8 second CD).
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Re: ret gear and dps

Postby Baelor » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:15 pm

daemonym wrote:
Q: What major glyphs should I use?
A: Glyph of Judgement and Glyph of Consecration for sure. For the 3rd major glyph spot, take your pick of Glyph of Avenging Wrath, Glyph of Hammer of Wrath, and Glyph of Crusader Strike.


for the third i went with crusader strike as i easily run oom if i get into a string where i need to FoL myself like saphh or 4H. but i'm really wondering why consecration glyph? is it just there to smooth out your "rotation?"

You use Glyph of Consecration because it saves you mana (2 extra ticks for no mana cost increase) and smooths out your rotation.
Meta = Relentless Earthsiege Diamond.


why not the 21 crit rating 3% crit damage meta?

http://e4ae.blogspot.com/2008/12/wrath- ... inued.html
Long story short - if you're a JC, you can use the 21 crit meta. If you're not, read that post and then come back if you have more questions.

1 Strength
2 Hit (to 8%, or ~262 rating)
3 Expertise (to 6.5%, or ~214 rating before racials - get to 26 expertise skill)


may just be personal annoyance, but i would really like a lot more exp. on my gear than i currently have (almost none). i am constantly seeing dodged skills and if i happen to be in front of a mob or enough to the side for it to 'count' as in front i see just as many parrys. is there a certain % i want to aim for before all out strength or just take expertise as it comes and don't gem/enchant it anywhere?

If you want to gear for expertise, that's your own perogative. I do not recommend it. Take hit/expertise/crit as they come naturally on your gear, focus on strength/AP. If you deviate from that, you're only serving to gimp your damage. A good portion of your DPS comes from attacks that are not dodgeable (Judgement), making expertise even less important than hit.

There is also Glyph of Seal of Blood,


glad i read this as i thought it was additive like the SA glyph was. i'll def be dropping this one when i get home tonight. i'll replace it with consecrate, but still would like to know the reason why (not contesting you, as i'm taking your advice regardless, just want to know the mechanics behind it).

Glyphs of Judgement, Consecration, and Crusader Strike sound good to me. Roll with that.
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Re: ret gear and dps

Postby Dorvan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:19 pm

daemonym wrote:for the third i went with crusader strike as i easily run oom if i get into a string where i need to FoL myself like saphh or 4H. but i'm really wondering why consecration glyph? is it just there to smooth out your "rotation?"


It increases the damage per cast and damage per mana of Cons by 25%. In other words, you get a DPS and an efficiency increase in one glyph.

why not the 21 crit rating 3% crit damage meta?


As Maj said, unless you are a JC you lose more DPS filling out the meta requirement than you gain from 21 crit instead of 21 agi.

is there a certain % i want to aim for before all out strength or just take expertise as it comes and don't gem/enchant it anywhere?


Never gem anything but Str unless it's to meet your meta requirement (there are 1-2 places where a Str/Hit gem in a yellow slot is worth it, but even those are rare).

EDIT: if possible, i'd also like to know how much hit is worth how much of a sacrifice in strength assuming in teetering on the verge of hit cap vs. non capped.


Plug your gear into Rawr or Redcape's Spreadsheet (which is what I prefer) and see what stat weightings it gives for your set up. To give you a rough idea, for me 2 Str = 3 Hit rating. Hit will be worth less at lower gear levels. Don't worry about "teetering" on hit cap....the cap just tells you when hit is no longer useful, it's not something to specifically aim for as a Ret Pally.

As a last bit, I prefer Glyph of HoW over Glyph of CS. They both give back about the same mana, but with Gylph of HoW your mana consumption is steady throughout the whole fight...you don't wind up in a situation where you're suddenly going OOM at the end due to a high mana rotation.

A couple last links of potential interest:

My Armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... e&n=Dorvan

Loot Rank with item weighting based on my current gear (set bonuses not factored in):
http://www.lootrank.com/wr.asp?Cla=2&Ar ... &j1=0&j2=0
Last edited by Dorvan on Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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