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[10] Sartharion 3D: Add Tanking

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[10] Sartharion 3D: Add Tanking

Postby Peaches » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:17 pm

This is not a How-To on 10 Sarth 3D, but more an explination on what you should prepare for tanking the "Adds". This is for a 3 Tank 3 Healer setup. If you have questions on a 2 Tank setup it will be much different.

Different views help people figure out things to make their group work, so I will offer mine. My gear is all BiS off pieces as I saw fit for the fight, except for the T7 helm. I used my 7.5 token on Holy set. I play a Prot Paladin for progression and Holy for farm. Sarth 3D is the only "Progression" left.

Our Group

(Tank HP is buffed before engaging boss, then estimated as to what they were at pull.)

Feral MT - 51k hp / 37k
Feral Drake Tank - 50k / 36k
Paladin Add Tank - 36k(24% Dodge/24% block unbuffed) / 27k
--
Disc Priest
Holy Paladin
Resto Shaman
--
DPS: (All four DPS were near even with these values as their "Tenebron nuke" DPS.)
Affliction Lock (4.8k avg)
Arcane Mage (4.9k avg)
Boomkin (4.7k avg)
Elemental Shaman (4.7k avg)

There was a decent amount of thought in going with the group we have and although it lacks certain things, it makes up for it in buffs.

We use a ranged-DPS group with the obvious benefits from the Space Chicken Aura and Elemental Shamans. All four of our DPS did between 4-5k dps during Tenebron. The Resto shaman also DPS's until Tenebron is down. We do not have a replenishment but we do have three innervates, Mana Tide, and 2 LoH for pure Mana. The innervates from the two ferals can easily be coordinated with myself taunting their target off for three seconds or so. We really try to avoid it though.


But on to how to handle the Fire and Whelp adds...

Fire Elementals and Dealing With Them

They spawn from falling lava rocks hitting players. Seemingly random and unpredictable, but something you will have to deal with. It seems about 2-3 spawn per player hit by the rock. Normal Fires have around 26k HP, enraged adds 76k. (If someone can post true numbers, please do. I dont have access at work.) Fires enrage from being hit by Fire Walls.

(On this fight there are a few ways to avoid having too many adds.
Before Tenebron lands, DPS on Sarth is not of much importance. From my understanding, the Lava rocks that shoot down spawn the Fire Elementals. However, they seem to only spawn them if a player is hit by it. Just taking that 10 seconds or so to avoid the rocks will give you much more flexibility later.)

If your raid can avoid as many rocks as possible before Tenebron engages, your job will be much easier. Tenebron will land and there will always be a firewall right before/during/after, the timing is off by a few seconds. Assume you will have 2-3 Fires at the time of the first wave for the sake of explaining.

The easiest way to grab threat is to single target Taunt or RD, but the latter is something a lot of us are afraid to use. My preferred way to get threat is Judging. I seal Righteousness, and Judge light. Every time. I spec 5/61/6 and Righteousness offers more snap threat then SoV.
Average crits in my +Hit/balanced set were 3.8k, enough to not worry about anyone pulling off me. ShoR and HotR are abilities you should use based on the targets range. With ShoR you can snag the close ones and keep them, and Hotr will let you get them just a few steps faster.

It is safe to HoJ an Enraged Fire right after the Firewall passes by; it will let you ease the chaos a bit, just don't forget about it. Depending on the setup, I suggest creating multiple RD hotkeys for major threat generators in your raid. Or use mouseovers with grid, just don't hover over the wrong druid/paladin. Single-target taunt the loose run-aways that you didn't grab and RD the swarmed aggroed ones. Judge the fresh spawns or ShotR/Hotr. Don't waste your AS. Adds that spawn very far from you can/should be picked up by your other tanks. Because really, your lazy feral MT isnt doing anything but "strafe left,strafe right." If its not enraged, he can kill it alone. Just as you can do, kill the fire adds if you have time.

Where the hell do I place my concecrate?

In front of the portal, about 2-3 steps in front of it towards your raid healer. After a while, you should be smooth and fluid. Drop it there every time. You can argue that it needs only be dropped there at a certain time, but if it's in the same place every time then you know adds spawning there are of no concern to you, as you will get the threat.
Place the Conc there and run around.

How do I catch the whelps with my crappy concecrate?

If you are using a group make up similar to mine, then you have an advantage. The added SP from totems and using the +141 SP to Concecrate libram (sorry, cannot link from work), makes grabbing the whelps very very easy. The first set of whelps will spawn about the same time each time. The whelps will almost always pop out right after the firewall that coincides with Tenebron casting the "Hatching eggs" ability.

A lot of add tanks fail here because of the "oh shit" factor. Oh shit, I have fire adds on me and there's a firewall coming. Then the oh shit, the whelps are coming and I have enraged or normal fire adds on me. Positioning before the firewall is the key to getting the whelps. Position yourself so you are standing right infront of the portal where you concecrate is, waiting. If you got into a happy rhythm with keeping your concecrate where I explained above, then those 6-7 whelps will literally snap to you. If you can time your concecrate so that you drop it as you are avoiding firewalls, then 9/10 times, you will get the adds. My concecrate is about 1700~ SP buffed with raid/libram; it's my job for the fight and I will do it as best as I can.

Now the whelps spawn and you have two scenarios.

1) You catch all the whelps. Now you have fire adds and whelps... Maybe even an enraged add or two. What do you do?
Sit there and wait until the next firewall. Holy Shield and Concecrate will hold threat on them. Fire adds will still spawn; save your judgement, AS, taunt to bring them to you. You cannot afford to chase adds now. After the next firewall, move the adds to the ass of Tenebron.
He should be just about dead and Shadron should be landing, if not already engaged. Keep them there and use your AS to long-range grab fire adds, use RD hotkeys off the healers, and taunt off the DPS.

Tips:
-Waiting for the firewall will let you build enough threat so you don't have to keep working them while AoE is going, allowing you to continue grabbing fire adds off the raid during the aoe.
-When you decide to move the group of adds, you need to be fast. Fast normally turns into gibbed. I use my repelling charge trinket for 3025hp and run them. I am not worried about getting hit from behind as much as getting them into position. Strafing works best here.
-Sometimes the Drake tank has a hard time targeting Shadron because of the delay. Keeping the cluster away from him helps targeting problems.
-Don't right click on the portal. It happens and you will feel like an idiot.
-Make sure you take the safe opening near the portal from the "South" waves before the whelps spawn.



2) You only get 1-2 whelps and there rest are going all over the place. How do you save the raid?
The whelps that you do catch will probably take 2 ticks from your conc, which should be enough for you to neglect them. If you are fast, which you should be for this fight, you chase them the hell down. Some people use a holy paladin with RF for this reason; it will always go to him/her. We don't do that.

Earlier, I said not to waste your AS on the fire adds.
You save it for this exact moment. You grab the little group with AS, RD hotkey your healer who got aggro, and taunt whelp on the warlock who got aggro from being dumb. This is all about being fast; you won't get one-shot by five fire adds and two whelps. Just run and save the raid. Once you have them together proceed with scenario 1. You are free to use AS as needed now.

Tenebron is dead, whelps have been AOE'd, is my job done?

No. If you are getting past this point you are halfway through.
Twilight Torment is raping your raid. Ther aren't many fire adds because you just cleaned them up, and your drake tank is taking double drake
breaths for a bit. All the while, you have Vesperon's add downstairs.
This is where all your high school math goes to shit:

2+2 = 1 .
2 Drakes +2 Disciples = 1 shot breath

There are many methods of dealing with this, and I will not go into it.
But from a prot paladin PoV, there are a few things you can help with.
By this point, Twilight Torment is raping your DPS and heals can barely keep up. You probably have one or two fire adds. Time to pop Divine Guardian speced Divine Shield. You aren't taking damage but the raid is and the tanks are. Coordinate with the RL to have your DS with DG proc in the rotation mid-late in shadrons life. Although you are immune, if it is just 2-3 fire adds on you, you can still regain aggro on them fast. The raid takes 30% less damage; so does the MT. You saved the raid and successfully negated a one-shot breath. You are going to continue tanking fires and dodging firewalls. Don't forget about Hand of Sacrifice to save the tank in the 2+2=1 time frame.
You will live through the breath with HoS, but your holy paladin has to bubble most of the time. Do not be afraid to be involved in the cooldown rotation.
The rest of your job is all on the fly here. If a tank goes down, pick up the target until he or she has recovered with a Battle Res. If you are at this point, you are 95% of the way done with the fight.

Conclusion

A Paladin can tank the adds just as good, if not better then a DK.
Having a ranged group with shamans will improve your ability to get whelps.

Tanking adds is an intense job. If you are hesitant at all, you are going to wipe the raid. Taunting the drake by mistake while trying to save your priest is more acceptable than standing in the void zone and having the fire kill your priest while you die in what is now a bright blue cotten candy machine.

SoR+JoL for burst threat. AS to save your raid from whelps. Fire adds
can be dealt with by other cooldowns. You never want to AS fire adds during a firewall. Enraged Adds suck.

Kill the adds if you're waiting for something. 26k hp you can nuke down two fire adds before the whelps even spawn.

The MT will always die because of the healer. The Drake tank will always die because of the healer. The add tank will always die because he is slow.

Hotkey everything. If you're clicking, someone is dying.
Trinkets, HP Pots, HS, taunts, everything needs to be hotkeyed. If your not using keybindings at this point, let someone else take the add tank role until you are more comfortable.
(Note to clickers: some of you may be pro, but thats no excuse to click
4-5 different abilities)

I am a big fan of +block. And would almost suggest it here. The problem I see with +block on this fight is you lose +hit to gain it. I went with a mix of Hit, Dodge, Block, while keeping my HP above 30k unbuffed. Maybe in 25man it would benefit you more, but then again, thats a whole nother guide.


If I missed out on anything or you have questions, feel free to ask.
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Postby Mex » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:27 am

Hrmmm a few things.

Firstly, the spawning of the fire eles uses the exact same mechanic as Onyxia's deep breath. Whether players get hit is irrelevant. When a lava strike hits the floor, it has a chance to spawn an add.

When picking up the adds, it's worth noting that you don't need the standard 8% hit to grab them. They're only 71.

I'd also perhaps stress different gearing choices here, especially the hugely increased value of block stats. You did mention it, but it may even be worth mentioning possible changes in gear specifically to stack these stats. BV is a huge amount of mitigation; I'm not sure exactly where the "soft cap" (enough to full block the whelps) would land, but even beyond that it's a great stat for mitigating the fire eles. Additionally, armour won't mitigate fire ele damage, so armour considerations on your gear should be lower than for tanking other bosses, and devo aura will most likely be inferior to fire res aura.

I'm also completely flabbergasted that you'd do this fight without PoJ with no unholy DK in the group. Movement speed is godly for picking up adds and avoiding the various environmental dangers. I'd take it over SotP any day of the week. With no ret pally, HotC is very good too.

Remember that consecration scales with AP as well as SP. BoM (550 AP) or battle shout will yield ~4 times the increase that the consecration libram will. In fact, the libram is probably roughly equal to the benefit your consecration would gain from using 40 str food. Imo, the extra BV from libram of reciprocation is just too good on this fight to pass up. Consecration libram would be an option I suppose, if you're really struggling, but AP buffs will generally benefit it much more. A ranged group with a shaman is ok in terms of buffs to consecration, but remember than GoA will provide you with more consecration DPS than WoA will. AP > SP.

Also it's not relevant to your particular composition, but tranq shot / anesthetic poison (Fan of Knives ftw) work on enraged adds.

Otherwise really good write-up, some interesting stuff in there that I hadn't even thought about, SoR for instance. I'm so used to SoV that I never even considered changing.
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Postby Hopesend » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:38 pm

this part of the fight is severely brutalizing me right now; i just came out of 2hours of add troubles. Ive been using the SoR and JoL idea, and it seems to be helping a bit, but all hell seems to just break loose once the whelps spawn. they simply never seem to stay in my consecrate long enough to pick up any threat on me, and thus always go to the healer on the far end of the platform. Is there anything else I should be doing differently? or anything that my group could be doing to improve my control on those damned adds?

doesn't seem to help either that my group continually bitches at me about the add control, but thats not something that can be helped here.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dark+Iron&n=Hopesend
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Postby amh » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:49 am

Do you use one or two tanks for the adds? Two makes it a lot easier, especially for whelps. We kinda use a 1,5 solution. I tank everything before and after whelps, but I have a DK that helps out specifically when the whelps spawn, and if things get out of hand. Much easier for him to run and pick up a loose mob and bring it to me, than for me to drag every single mob with me if both taunts are on cooldown. Or if they go for that mysterious healer who is always out of range.

There´s so much going on in that fight anyway that sometimes it takes me ages to spot a mob. Looking back at a few recordings I´ve made, and it´s a miracle that people survive, really. Having that extra oh-shit-tank is very comfortable, and you´re not loosing all that much dps.



One tank?

Whelps spawn -> mage frost nova (make sure people know not to stand on the portal, or they go splat soon enough)
Have a DK place a DnD on top of your consecration. Even if they get past yours, they should take a tick of his and go for him. If he´s on you, they will be yours within the next tick.
Holy paladin with righteous fury, spam-taunt off him.
Rogue with a focus-macro on you, tricks of the trade -> fan of knives when the whelps spawn.

Edit: Oh, thought you meant 25. For 10-man, the above should give you a few tips.
I used to play a paladin.
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Postby Aldonza » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:33 am

Ok, I have an issue with add tanking.

We normally run 3 tank / 2 healer / 5 dps. Our two healers are a Holy Paladin for the Sarth tank and until the past two weeks a resto druid. Resto druid began her residency to become a doctor, so she's out of the loop now. We have been trying other guild resto druids and resto shamans, but we've not had much success so far. (We have no quality raiding priests.)

I can normally grab all the whelp fairly quickly when they spawn. I am the add tank for the 25 man group as well, and I know when and where they spawn. So I am always right where I need to be (barring unlucky ticks from consecrate as they spawn). Other than that, I cannot quite seem to keep the adds from raping the new healers. We never had this problem with the original druid healer. I can't figure out if I'm suddenly doing something different or if the new healers are not doing something the old healer was.

It's very frustrating, especially moreso when the one healer is constantly blaming only me for their deaths. With the exception when I am whelp tanking, I normally stand between where the MT healer is and the other healer is that way I have a crossway for the adds to hit the consecrate. I am doing everything aside from standing on top of him (and paying no mind to the MT healer) to keep adds off, and I am just at a loss at this point. I just don't know if it is a positioning / alertness factor with the healer or if that many adds are slipping by.

I do know that we are going to try this go round with a different setup. We're going to try two holy paladins as the healers. Our Guild Leader is an excellent healer and he's tanked 25 man when I've been unavailable. But I'd be willing to accept more tips or choices to make things better.
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Postby Grizwold » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:26 am

I've been tanking adds for a while now, and I have to say this fight is making me want to quit. The shear amount of randomness + lack of instant AOE burst threat (whelps) is raping me + healers. I have ~ 1750 spellpower raid buffed for the whelps, and consc is ~410 per tick or more, but that still doesnt seem to grab the whelps. Also I am standing ~ where the whelps spawn, and CONSTANTLY having fire elementals spawn as far from the middle as possible, as well as in the fire walls and being auto enraged.

Is there anything I can do, or is the constant complaining "why are there enraged adds", "why is there an add on a healer", "why are whelps running loose", etc is pushing me over the limit. I've also has it with the crappy +3 vids that show kills where a total of like 5-7 flames spawn over the 7 minute fight, I get ~ 7 every 10-15 seconds (seriously) and have no clue why i end up with 15+ adds on me BEFORE the whelps....

/rant
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Postby Belloc » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:42 pm

I'm setting up a group for 10-man 3D and I'm looking into trying two things to enable easier pickup of whelps.

The first is having a rogue use tricks as soon as they are up and hitting fan of knives. This will cost a bit of DPS, but it shouldn't be enough to kill an attempt.

The second is using my LoH on a random player OR asking the healers to let me get to half health and then using it on myself as soon as they spawn.
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Postby Grizwold » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:09 pm

Belloc wrote:I'm setting up a group for 10-man 3D and I'm looking into trying two things to enable easier pickup of whelps.

The first is having a rogue use tricks as soon as they are up and hitting fan of knives. This will cost a bit of DPS, but it shouldn't be enough to kill an attempt.

The second is using my LoH on a random player OR asking the healers to let me get to half health and then using it on myself as soon as they spawn.


Frankly most of the time the whelps aren't the problem... Was just having a bad night with them due to the fire adds... Has anyone figured out the mechanics behind them, because I am mostly frustrated with the shear number of flame adds i get EVERY attempt. Most vids show like 5 TOPS before the whelps, I usually have killed 2-4 and have another 7-10 on me easily. If I only had to manage 5 fires + 6 whelps that wouldnt be too bad, but 10 fires + 6 whelps is getting overwhelming to just find/target them all... Any advice for the shear numbers of fire adds?

Oh and its great when they spawn on a healer in the shad+vesp+adds phase and hit a healer for 8k base damage without enrage after having been hit within a second prior by the meteor for 14k..... Is there any way at all to prevent this?
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Postby Aldonza » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:30 pm

Belloc - As long as you have the positioning for where the whelps spawn, and you have a good sense of timing for when they are going to spawn (right after the second fire wall), you should be able to relatively easily get the adds. I wouldn't suggest taking a dps off Tenebrom. Burning him down quick is key to moving on - and I've found a second set of whelps certain doom on 10man.
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Postby Omatre » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 am

Thanks for the write up Peaches. I moved to a new guild, and outside of my primer being a 10 man Naxx. This was the 2nd fight I was enlisted to do.

I've been doing this fight for awhile now, and tonight was just hell on earth for me doing adds.

Normally I do not have issues. I was tired, and getting frustrated with my own abilities. Not quite to the level of questioning my skills, but wondering if I should just /faceroll.

A rogue was in the raid, and I never saw a tricks of the trade on me, which admittingly would help. I'll make note to poke this to the RL.

I chalked it up to tired + new group, and not accustomed to their stylings, diff comps than I'm used to, and a CoH priest who was so aggro happy I could judge and a mob wouldn't come off him sometimes.
I was throwing salv's on him, and macro'ing him for BoP's and I swear its like anything that spawned would eat him alive. I think after a certain point I was so hard pressed to focus on him to stay alive I lost track of what I should have been doing, not what I was doing, and it basically resulted in a chain of me admittingly failing, and I'm just not that way ;)

I'm gonna go with the old tried and true trick of throwing heals out before the whelps spawn, as that was my frustration moment all night long, and I've typically been rather successful at it.

I guess just reading someone else having the same aggrevation as me was helpful, and at the same time refreshing knowing I wasn't losing it in my old age, it was just the way the cookie crumbles some nights I guess.

If anyone else has any tips on this, feel free to throw them around, as it is the seperator between good and better at this point, and I know I fall into the better category, and it was just "one of those nights"
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Postby Grizwold » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:12 am

Omatre wrote:If anyone else has any tips on this, feel free to throw them around, as it is the seperator between good and better at this point, and I know I fall into the better category, and it was just "one of those nights"


have a hunter toss a frost trap down when the whelps are about to spawn, it cause cause blaze troubles with being enraged but it keeps the whelps in your consecrate for at least 1 if not 2 or more ticks minimum.
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Postby Omatre » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:33 am

Yeah I thought about that too.
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Postby Belloc » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:51 am

Aldonza wrote:Belloc - As long as you have the positioning for where the whelps spawn, and you have a good sense of timing for when they are going to spawn (right after the second fire wall), you should be able to relatively easily get the adds. I wouldn't suggest taking a dps off Tenebrom. Burning him down quick is key to moving on - and I've found a second set of whelps certain doom on 10man.
Well, the major issue is that I'm likely going to be tanking drakes AND whelps (with a voidwalker tanking Sarth). We'll have extra DPS since I'll be the only real tank, so I'm not expecting much dps trouble with having a rogue hit a fan of knives once during the fight...

I'm more expecting trouble with reliably picking up the other adds :)
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Postby Charie » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:53 am

It really depends on where you are tanking the drakes but having the healers know where to position so the whelps have to run through your consecrate makes a big deference.

It was hit or miss for me tanking the drakes and adds, sometimes I would pick them up perfectly other times I would miss a few. I went as far as marking the healers with raid icons so I could keep tabs on them.
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