Sarth[25] + 3, Pally or Warrior MT

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Sarth[25] + 3, Pally or Warrior MT

Postby Jeryia » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:47 am

Hello,
At this time, my guild does not have a geared druid or death knight tank. A warrior and myself are the best geared tanks we have. I'm looking for a way to allow either of us to survive tanking sarth[25] with 3 drakes up.

Based on data I have collected from sarth with 2 drakes up, Sartheron hits me for a maximum melee of 12k and a maximum breath of 16k. The best I can do with my gear in terms of health is 42k before the -25% health debuff. This debuff would leave me at 31.5k hp and taking hits of 12k melee, and 32k fire. The flame breath does not interrupt sarth's melee swings therefore I must consider the possibility for these attacks to land at the same time.

Therefore: 31.5k(My health) - 32k(breath) - 12(boss melee) = death

This poses a problem. The only solutions I can see are:
1. Gear out one of our druids or deathknights as a tank - This will likely take several weeks.
2. Use a mixed Fire resist set - Don't know how effective this would be
3. Use a tank switching tactic - Have a order for each of our four tanks to grab sarth, and pop their shield wall.

My Questions:
1. I'd prefer to avoid solution 1, as I'd rather not sit on my feet for a few weeks.
2. The main issue with solution 2 is I don't know how much fire resist would be needed at lvl 80. Does anyone know what the required resistances would achieve a guaranteed 25%, 50% and 75% mitigation from fire?
3. Solution 3 sounds most viable for us. However I havn't seen any mention of it as a tactic on these forums. Any reason this wouldn't work? For tanks we have 3 pallys and 2 warriors. It's a bit complex, but could work. What do you think?



If anyone has any suggestions other than these feel free to state them.
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Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:35 am

As far as I'm aware, the breath does reset his swing timer, meaning that you shouldn't expect any melee damage until 2 seconds (plus judgments of the just) after the breath.

Next, what cooldowns are at your disposal? Obviously you have Divine Protection, but what else? Guardian Spirit? Multiple Guardian Spirits? Perhaps a Pain Suppression? It's generally suggested that if you have the DPS to actually pull this fight off, you shouldn't take more than 3-4 breaths. So... if you have the major cooldowns to handle those, then your health should be fine, right?


Alternatively, bring an additional tank and have them taunt and run during breaths. There's a thread with info on that in this forum.
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Postby Grizwold » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:41 am

actually the last drake incraeses fire by 100% normally and an addition 50 or 75% when his add is up inside the portal, so its possible to be hit for ~60k before resistance gear. The best thing to do, as per theory is aim for ~ 225 fire resist. That puts you at a minimum resist of 20%. However, you would still die on those attack, it just mitigates ALOT of the damage. The key to Sart+3 is cooldown chaining. You need a rotation of shieldwall / guardian spirit / hand of sacrifice+divine guarding / etc to mitigate the breats when both shadron and vesperon are up with thier respective adds. Its a hard fight but it comes down primarily to execution.
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Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:42 am

Grizwold wrote:actually the last drake incraeses fire by 100% normally and an addition 50 or 75% when his add is up inside the portal, so its possible to be hit for ~60k before resistance gear. The best thing to do, as per theory is aim for ~ 225 fire resist. That puts you at a minimum resist of 20%. However, you would still die on those attack, it just mitigates ALOT of the damage. The key to Sart+3 is cooldown chaining. You need a rotation of shieldwall / guardian spirit / hand of sacrifice+divine guarding / etc to mitigate the breats when both shadron and vesperon are up with thier respective adds. Its a hard fight but it comes down primarily to execution.

The last drake reduces health (or stamina, not sure which) by 25%. He doesn't increase damage. You were correct, however, about his acolyte.
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Postby Arkhen » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:08 pm

Belloc wrote:Alternatively, bring an additional tank and have them taunt and run during breaths. There's a thread with info on that in this forum.

Isnt that fixed on last patch?
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=20245
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Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:27 pm

Arkhen wrote:
Belloc wrote:Alternatively, bring an additional tank and have them taunt and run during breaths. There's a thread with info on that in this forum.

Isnt that fixed on last patch?
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... hp?t=20245
Yup, just read about that. Sucks.
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Postby Grizwold » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:23 pm

Belloc wrote:The last drake reduces health (or stamina, not sure which) by 25%. He doesn't increase damage. You were correct, however, about his acolyte.


I was assuming that for +2 they left up 100%shadow and -25% health, as that gives the most time between drakes, and the -25% health is less deadly than the +100% fire (plus 50% extra from acolyte) from a progression standpoint. At least thats how we progressed. Either way, the breaths, during the phase od doom (shadron+vesperon+both acolytes) will 1 hit anyone that isnt using like 400+ fire resist (500 is the number to make sure everything is at LEAST 40% mitigated) or using some sort of major cooldown, like shield wall or pain supression.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:33 am

FR doesn't work as well as you might think, don't try it. You need to stack stamina above all else. The only strategy you can really use with a war/pal tank is the Shadron DPS race, ignoring portals until he's dead and chaining cooldowns on the tank while Shadron+Vesperon are up. He doesn't breathe on a clockwork, so you need to find the longest chain of continuous saves that you can manage with your raid comp and arrange that rotation. If DPS is slow and you run out of cooldowns, healers don't top you off fast enough, or someone misses a beat, you will get one-shot.
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Postby Grizwold » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:45 am

PsiVen wrote:FR doesn't work as well as you might think, don't try it. You need to stack stamina above all else. The only strategy you can really use with a war/pal tank is the Shadron DPS race, ignoring portals until he's dead and chaining cooldowns on the tank while Shadron+Vesperon are up. He doesn't breathe on a clockwork, so you need to find the longest chain of continuous saves that you can manage with your raid comp and arrange that rotation. If DPS is slow and you run out of cooldowns, healers don't top you off fast enough, or someone misses a beat, you will get one-shot.


Well it depends, i DID tank sarth+3 with 418 FR (only 26.8k life after the aura, and was crittable albiet like .5%), and i DID survive 5 breaths of doom, 2 with cooldowns (shield wall first, pain supression second) and then 3 without any majors, and 1 of those without even a minor, (order was Bubblewall/PainSup/PW:S/nothing/PW:S) We didn't have great dps for 2 reasons, 3 healers, and then bad lava walls. I wouldnt suggest FR, but it does work.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:16 am

Answering to OP: no big difference, depends on who your add and drake tanks are.

There's a grand total of 1% damage difference between you and a warrior from the boss.
However, having you *not* tanking will grant the raid one additional cooldown (sacrifice) if not 2 (divine guardian)
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Postby Grizwold » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:19 am

Worldie wrote:Answering to OP: no big difference, depends on who your add and drake tanks are.

There's a grand total of 1% damage difference between you and a warrior from the boss.
However, having you *not* tanking will grant the raid one additional cooldown (sacrifice) if not 2 (divine guardian)


Piggybacking here, basically, you want your 2 most geared tanks on sarth then on the drakes. The drake tank gets hit HARD as well, and you cant afford cooldowns on him besides the personal shield wall. Frankly, the add tank picking up flame adds and whelps has generally the 'hardest' job in that he is CONSTANTLY moving and switching targets to get everything off your healers/dps.

There isnt much besides a cooldown rotation to keep the sarth tank up during the vesp+shad+adds phase.

And as a final answer to your main questions:
1) Best strategy at the moment, get a DK or Druid, DK prefered. Not 'needed' (so you can keep trying without while you gear one up), but simplifies it a ton

2) New resistance mechanics, and have diminishing returns, theres a writeup i started that needs to be amended, but the general idea is ~225 FR provideds at least 20% mitigation (40% resistance ~25% of the time, 20% ~ 50% of the time, 20% ~ 25% of the time), and it takes a whopping 500FR to get up to 40% min resist which usually gimps your other stats to where its not overly viable. I did it with 416 on the 10 man, it does help but you need the best of the best gear otherwise.

3) Tank swaps are bad imo. Healers need to swap targets and start healing which has a delay and can cause problems, but it does give you 1 more cooldown...

Basically a cooldown rotation of major cooldowns (Shield wall / Guardian spirit / pain supression / sacrifice + divine guardian ) or multiple minor cooldowns together (Last stand + fire pot / etc) is your best bet, but it takes alot of coordination and a missed c/d usually means a death. Best of luck with it.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:12 pm

Interesting, the reports of full breaths with capped FR may have been exaggerating or it was changed. 225 FR is a decent goal then, aura will cover most of it.
Last edited by PsiVen on Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Avengeance » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:43 pm

I mted 25+3 with 285 FR buffed - of course breaths of doom are still not survivable without CDs, but you do reduce your chance of getting jibbed by a lot, and makes minor CDs like Pain Suppression just enough to make you survive.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:17 pm

Hrm, I worked out breakpoints of:
<Nevermind! More testing seems to be needed, at least for the Boss coefficient>
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Postby Worldie » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:18 pm

Uhm, anyone could confirm what Rasm is saying? Would be very interesting for Sarth + 3.
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