PoJ Discussion (Split from the 3.09 Patch Thread)

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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:51 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Sabin, we have DK's death grip the sparks to the raid.


Are we talking about 10 or 25 man? Because we do the same thing, except we usually only have 1 DK and more sparks than his Death Grip cooldown can move.


If we don't have enough DKs we'll rotate the landing position if it's needed. During vortex the spark watcher will call out which way the raid goes, and I'll go the opposite, it's pretty rare that we've had to do that though.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:53 pm

Sabindeus wrote:If you have a spark coming in behind you that is going to be problematic, you can just have ranged kill it, often this will give you the spark buff for super happy fun time threat.

This is the strategy my own guild uses.
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Postby Steve » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:05 pm

kurros wrote:But you being in position before he lands is a little hard to believe, he lands almost immediately after vortex, and vortex will sometimes drop you in the south side of the room.


This is not actually true. On Vortex, Malygos will move to the center of the room before launching into the air if he isn't already in the center of the room.

After Vortex is over, every player will get sucked into the middle of the room on their way down. Every player lands in exactly the same spot in the middle of the room every single time on vortex. There are no exceptions that I've seen.

Healers can move like 2-3 steps south after he lands, be out of range of the breath, and start casting that first heal on the tank so he isn't gibbed post vortex.

The tank can always just move north while spamming away.

Moderate this post into oblivion if it's too far off topic.
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Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:23 pm

This will be my last post on the topic, since mods have asked us to take the PoJ discussion elsewhere. In fact, I wouldn't post this at all, but since at least 2 mods are still actively taking part in the discussion, I think one post is probably acceptable. :P

Conaan!: I want to apologize a little bit for my tone in the last post, it came across as more combative than I intended. The armory lookup was not meant to be a "low blow," nor was I attempting to criticize you for your achievements or gear. The point I intended to make with that was that the content you are progressing through probably favors the utility that you gain from PoJ, but other levels of content favor the threat from SotP. Your "TL;DR" section seems to indicate that we agree on this, at least in principle.

I still disagree with your methodology; I gave numbers suggesting that PoJ's effect on mobility is rarely more noticeable than usual server latency, which I find more convincing than your response, which boils down to, "but at some point, you might need that extra 300 milliseconds."

And there is a far more important distinction than you seem willing to admit between "I can tank without wearing pants" and "This talent provides a moderate benefit, but is not necessary and does not fill a core tanking requirement." Consider that we are one of two possible tanks that have a talent to increase our movement speed - warriors and druids do not (at least as far as I'm aware, if I'm wrong on this please correct me).

Blizzard's design philosophy, as poorly as they adhere to it, is to make content that any of the four tanks can handle. This means that by design, there will not be encounters designed around a tank having a 15% run speed. In fact, there probably won't be encounters designed around having 8% run speed, simply because if there were then every tank would be required to enchant Tuskarr's. Admittedly, we don't exactly have many interesting options for boots, but we do have a few. This is the exact reason they took out the Titanguard enchant - because it would be the de-facto choice, and there would be no variety in what we put on that slot. In their words, it would make the choice far less interesting than it is now.

All in all, I think it comes down to this: We both agree that the choice between PoJ and SotP is a choice between extra utility and extra threat. You and I just happen to put different value in those two things, which leads to our opinions regarding these two talents. I don't think either of us is "right," insofar as I don't think either is clearly superior in all situations, and I think we're both "right" in that we've chosen our specs to suit our playstyle. That's good enough for me, and I'm willing to drop the issue on that note.

kurros: Malygos does not land nearly as fast as you seem to think he does. If you face yourself north during Vortex, you can simply run/strafe north and easily out-range your healers before Malygos actually lands, and that's with 0% run speed bonus.

We tried the "tank stays north, death grip the adds" strategy when we were learning him, and just found DG to be less reliable than we'd like it to be. We also had some weird issues with sparks being DG'd through Malygos and giving him the buff, which may have been fixed by now.

After 5 or 6 attempts with that strategy, we switched to the one where I kite him around the circle to position him on the far side of the incoming add, so that we could stack sparks directly on the middle of the circle. We found this far more successful, though it relies heavily on the tank's awareness and mobility. One would think this is a situation where PoJ would really shine.

Except... it just doesn't. The circle path you kite him around is roughly 30 or 40 yards in diameter. You normally have to kite him around 3/8 of the circumference (~120 yards, probably less), which should be at worst about 45 yards. Even if I were to head north after every vortex, and have to kite him around to the farthest point (i.e. go from N to SW or SE), PoJ would save me only 380 milliseconds compared to the 8% boot enchant. As a frame of reference, my server latency is usually around 200-300 ms.

And to further drive the nail into the coffin, if you have a competent raid group, you don't need to always have them move south and always move yourself north. A far superior strategy, if your raiders can handle it, is to have the raid move towards the closest incoming spark, and the tank move the opposite direction. In this way, you don't actually have to kite malygos at all, since you can position yourself properly before he lands (even with 0% speed!). Since broadcasting the direction is trivially accomplished by having an officer announce "NE" or whatnot on ventrilo, it really comes down to having competent raiders.

And as a general comment to the people who say "what difference does that 5% from SotP even make," - if you don't understand the difference, you really have not done this encounter with well-geared, competent dps. I have several dps players who can out-aggro me on Malygos before the first Vortex, if they aren't careful, even with a perfect 969 rotation. They're also cranking out 5k+ dps in the process. As a raid leader, I want them to not have to hold back, because it gets us towards our goal faster. In that situation, you take every threat gain you can reasonably acquire.

There are classes that do not have innate aggro wipe abilities, and they scale exceptionally well with gear in the hands of a talented player. I fully expect that Ulduar will continue this pattern, and that tank threat will be an important part of the harder encounters it will bring.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:47 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Sabin, we have DK's death grip the sparks to the raid.


Are we talking about 10 or 25 man? Because we do the same thing, except we usually only have 1 DK and more sparks than his Death Grip cooldown can move.


If we don't have enough DKs we'll rotate the landing position if it's needed. During vortex the spark watcher will call out which way the raid goes, and I'll go the opposite, it's pretty rare that we've had to do that though.


This is pretty much what we do on every Vortex.
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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:33 pm

Khayne wrote:
kurros wrote:Easy choice for me. Things may change in Ulduar if there is a dangerous but fast-hitting boss that is unlikely to be leapfrogged, but currently AD is very weak. Apparently blizzard agrees because it is being reduced in talent cost.


Not getting into the PoJ debate, but would you say that 1-handed weapon spec is damn weak too, and ofc imp. hoj for ret pvp since both of them are getting reduced talent cost aswell?

I don't mind someone saying sotp is weak (it ain't that important to me either), but tanks slamming on mitigation talents usually irk me abit :?


The issue is that in current progression, what kills are the big hits that leapfrog AD. 70k fire damage sartharion breaths, AD is useless against them. Patchwerk hateful tanking, AD is useless- any hateful strike that would hit you at under 35% would kill you even with the reduction. Basically for anything that matters, AD is leapfrogged.

It's a mitigation talent for trash. Against bosses, it's a waste of 5 talent points.

Ulduar might have bosses that make it useful, but at the same time the cost is getting nerfed so it might be a worthwhile talent anyway.



1-handed weapon spec is only weak in that it gives you extra DPS and threat when you won't usually need it. However it gives a lot more per talent point, making it a far better value than SotP. Also, it's position in the tree means you have to take it (or something worse) to progress down to HotR.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:40 pm

kurros wrote:
Khayne wrote:
kurros wrote:Easy choice for me. Things may change in Ulduar if there is a dangerous but fast-hitting boss that is unlikely to be leapfrogged, but currently AD is very weak. Apparently blizzard agrees because it is being reduced in talent cost.


Not getting into the PoJ debate, but would you say that 1-handed weapon spec is damn weak too, and ofc imp. hoj for ret pvp since both of them are getting reduced talent cost aswell?

I don't mind someone saying sotp is weak (it ain't that important to me either), but tanks slamming on mitigation talents usually irk me abit :?


The issue is that in current progression, what kills are the big hits that leapfrog AD. 70k fire damage sartharion breaths, AD is useless against them. Patchwerk hateful tanking, AD is useless- any hateful strike that would hit you at under 35% would kill you even with the reduction. Basically for anything that matters, AD is leapfrogged.

It's a mitigation talent for trash. Against bosses, it's a waste of 5 talent points.

Ulduar might have bosses that make it useful, but at the same time the cost is getting nerfed so it might be a worthwhile talent anyway.



1-handed weapon spec is only weak in that it gives you extra DPS and threat when you won't usually need it. However it gives a lot more per talent point, making it a far better value than SotP. Also, it's position in the tree means you have to take it (or something worse) to progress down to HotR.


I'd disagree with that. The 70k breaths are a bit of a gimmicky thing, but if you are tanking 2 of the drakes or all those adds that eat armor and enrage, it's freaking huge. Also, using a CD to live through a big breath of doom will likely put you in AD range, meaning you won't die to subsequent damage. Don't forget to include both Sapph and Malygos in the discussion either and on both of those bosses AD is excellent if not OP.
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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:54 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I'd disagree with that. The 70k breaths are a bit of a gimmicky thing, but if you are tanking 2 of the drakes or all those adds that eat armor and enrage, it's freaking huge. Also, using a CD to live through a big breath of doom will likely put you in AD range, meaning you won't die to subsequent damage. Don't forget to include both Sapph and Malygos in the discussion either and on both of those bosses AD is excellent if not OP.


I don't think a paladin should ever tank sapph, you are going to have another tank in the raid and the fight is all about healing, I can't imagine ever tanking and making the dk or warrior tank try to dps, it's just so much better to offspec heal for that fight. Ignoring that, just because a fight *will* trigger AD doesn't mean AD is a strong talent.

Malygos, 30k breaths would always leapfrog AD, so not sure why you think it's a good fight for it, I could see it kicking in after a breath but to use your own argument: I have done the fight fine without it (or with 2/5 points, just to move down the tree) and we killed malygos fine.

The AD proponents usually have a false idea about how useful it is.

Oh, I went below 35%, AD saved me! <- usually not true.

You will often fall below 35%, but you get healed before the next hit anyway, and AD didn't help. Or you fall below 35%, get hit and die despite AD being up. Or you may fall below 35%, get hit with AD and live, but the hit was small enough that you would have lived without AD too.

I won't deny that it doesn't have some chance of helping, but I think the mitigation it offers is on par or LESS than what you could gain just by using seal of light- very minuscule benefit, and at a cost of 5 talent points it's just too high IMO.

If there was a good addon that really accurately measured the usefulness of AD in an accurate way it'd be interesting to see just how much of a difference it really makes in an average naxx 25 run, for example.


edit: Sarth adds, we tanked with a fresh 80 dk with some 26k hp? Keeping him alive has never been an issue at all, sure AD would make it easier (if he was a paladin) but it's easy enough already. It's just like AD makes trash easier, but who cares. It's the bosses that matter.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:22 pm

kurros wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I'd disagree with that. The 70k breaths are a bit of a gimmicky thing, but if you are tanking 2 of the drakes or all those adds that eat armor and enrage, it's freaking huge. Also, using a CD to live through a big breath of doom will likely put you in AD range, meaning you won't die to subsequent damage. Don't forget to include both Sapph and Malygos in the discussion either and on both of those bosses AD is excellent if not OP.


I don't think a paladin should ever tank sapph, you are going to have another tank in the raid and the fight is all about healing, I can't imagine ever tanking and making the dk or warrior tank try to dps, it's just so much better to offspec heal for that fight. Ignoring that, just because a fight *will* trigger AD doesn't mean AD is a strong talent.

Malygos, 30k breaths would always leapfrog AD, so not sure why you think it's a good fight for it, I could see it kicking in after a breath but to use your own argument: I have done the fight fine without it (or with 2/5 points, just to move down the tree) and we killed malygos fine.

The AD proponents usually have a false idea about how useful it is.

Oh, I went below 35%, AD saved me! <- usually not true.

You will often fall below 35%, but you get healed before the next hit anyway, and AD didn't help. Or you fall below 35%, get hit and die despite AD being up. Or you may fall below 35%, get hit with AD and live, but the hit was small enough that you would have lived without AD too.

I won't deny that it doesn't have some chance of helping, but I think the mitigation it offers is on par or LESS than what you could gain just by using seal of light- very minuscule benefit, and at a cost of 5 talent points it's just too high IMO.

If there was a good addon that really accurately measured the usefulness of AD in an accurate way it'd be interesting to see just how much of a difference it really makes in an average naxx 25 run, for example.


edit: Sarth adds, we tanked with a fresh 80 dk with some 26k hp? Keeping him alive has never been an issue at all, sure AD would make it easier (if he was a paladin) but it's easy enough already. It's just like AD makes trash easier, but who cares. It's the bosses that matter.


I can recognize the difference between merely triggering AD and having it be of some help. As for Malygos, first the breaths don't hit for 30k unless he ate a spark. They are for more like 22K which can put you in AD range, making the subsequent melee hit, explosion, and even a storm pretty low risk, it's extremely powerful after his breaths which is a pretty risky time.

On sapph, I don't really see much of a value in me healing, since we already have enough healers to handle it. Besides our DK tank does great DPS, and you can't just ignore the encounter because you don't tank it. That's like me refuting your Sarth claim by saying you should have a druid eating those breaths anyhow.

As for Sarths adds, if you are doing 3 drakes and have those adds and all those whelps which remove 15000 armor on a single tank, he is not going to be trivial to heal. He's going to be taking extra damage from the buffs while having 25% less health.

In my experience, AD has been pretty good in WotLK.
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Postby MrDuck » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:01 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I can recognize the difference between merely triggering AD and having it be of some help. As for Malygos, first the breaths don't hit for 30k unless he ate a spark. They are for more like 22K which can put you in AD range, making the subsequent melee hit, explosion, and even a storm pretty low risk, it's extremely powerful after his breaths which is a pretty risky time.

On sapph, I don't really see much of a value in me healing, since we already have enough healers to handle it. Besides our DK tank does great DPS, and you can't just ignore the encounter because you don't tank it. That's like me refuting your Sarth claim by saying you should have a druid eating those breaths anyhow.

As for Sarths adds, if you are doing 3 drakes and have those adds and all those whelps which remove 15000 armor on a single tank, he is not going to be trivial to heal. He's going to be taking extra damage from the buffs while having 25% less health.

In my experience, AD has been pretty good in WotLK.
Gotta agree, well, even when malygos once got a spark when we were learning the fight, i ate 33k breath, had like 7k left, and before i was healed above 35%, i got hit with melee, i'm pretty sure i'd not survive it without AD, 'cos he hits for like 17k with the spark buff. And on sarth with drakes, i'm in AD range a LOT of the time when tanking adds.

About sapphiron..I always tank that dragon, 'cos my healing in prot gear sucks, and guess what, i dont like to heal, so i have VERY lousy healing gear, while our DK can just switch presence and do competent dps. I can switch to ret set and run oom. We don't have a problem with healing there at all, even without frost resist aura, so havimg more dps to get it down is always welcome, not to mention my threat is highest among all our tanks, and mages with heroism and competent gear can definitely do some mess on threat.

Also ofc, Sapphiron is a dragon. Awesome looking dragon even, how could i ever pass tanking him? <3


About PoJ...i didnt have it in my spec 'till when we started working on sarth with drakes. When tanking adds there, it's great talent. Seriously, the difference is clearly noticeable, when i can drop consecration under healers and run off to tag the blazes quickly and back, having more speed really helps. A lot.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:04 pm

I realize I'm clearly guilty of this too, but lets reign in the AD discussion a bit and get back to PoJ.
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Postby yappo » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:47 pm

PoJ gives me a non-chain-weapon-enchant.

I HATE disarm. Silence is bad enough, and I don't need disarm to top it off.

An extra 7 stamina is mostly an added bonus. 7% more running speed? Yeah, fun, pretty useful in normal cases. Bloody marvelous in hc, which is what I primarily run. Love to PUG hc. Love to chainpull with good dps. When dps are better than I am tank I still keep threat because PoJ gives me time to check how the pull went down.

Apart from that? Because it's FUN running faster than most anything :D
Oh, and it IS great in PvP. Not because I can PvP worth shit, but people who get pissed off when I threaten to survive their rightful HK-Private by running away are exactly that much more likely to run right into *cough* surprises.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:31 pm

yappo wrote:I HATE disarm. Silence is bad enough, and I don't need disarm to top it off.


What are you worried about disarming you?
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Postby Petrus » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:59 am

I fully support PoJ in every build of everything ever.

I love that talent. So much. It saves my ass SO MUCH on Sarth with drakes when addtanking.
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Postby Khayne » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:38 am

kurros wrote:1-handed weapon spec is only weak in that it gives you extra DPS and threat when you won't usually need it. However it gives a lot more per talent point, making it a far better value than SotP. Also, it's position in the tree means you have to take it (or something worse) to progress down to HotR.


The merits of AD even in current content allready said (not to mention i've heard that Guardians at KT can bring on hurt if dps is poor), You said that "Blizz seems to agree with me that AD is poor because they reduce point cost."

They also reduce point cost of 1-handed spec.

Which is superior in every way to crusade that you said is nice to have in your spec. I were merely trying to point out the contradiction in your line of reasoning on that. Ofc i wont mind getting them both for less points, but it doesn't mean one or both of them would have been really underpowered in blizzards eyes.

Saying that AD is "Worthless for progression tanking"", is in my view even more flawed than saying "PoJ is worthless"

Both got their shining moments, i'd just personally rather take that AD.
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