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PoJ Discussion (Split from the 3.09 Patch Thread)

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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:57 pm

Dorvan wrote:Oh, and a build which takes Crusade is missing out on some points in deep prot and therefore unacceptable for progression raiding in my view.


You only take 2/5 AD to take Crusade. AD is worthless for progression raiding so this isn't a sacrifice.

6% more threat in most cases, 3% more for a few, vs an ability that will not save you from anything that is dangerous in the current WoW raidgame.

Easy choice for me. Things may change in Ulduar if there is a dangerous but fast-hitting boss that is unlikely to be leapfrogged, but currently AD is very weak. Apparently blizzard agrees because it is being reduced in talent cost.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:59 pm

kurros wrote:
Dorvan wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, for a 25 man build you're giving up 6 points to get it rather than 2. At a minimum, PoJ costs 3 points for a Prot build.


You mean, in *your* 25 man build you are giving up 6 points. Lets keep things in perspective. Hey, in *my* 25 man build, I like to take crusade, so PoJ effective cost is 0 because I need those points to reach tier 4 ret talents. This line of argument is pointless, the talent costs 2 points so it's 2 talent points in debate. I'm sure someone else will come along and say they don't like to spec deflection and PoJ costs 12 talent points for them.


Fridmarr wrote:
kurros wrote:Positioning faster is simply better, not sure why you think it wouldn't be.


There's no positioning on Malygos though. Even without PoJ you can always be where you want Malygos to be, before he even starts moving.


There is no positioning on Malygos? Are you insane?

Fridmarr wrote:So while you may get in place faster, Malygos keeps taking his sweet time with the net result being identitical.

Generally speaking, being able to move faster is a bonus, whether or not it's better than the alternatives though is most certainly debatable.


So there is positioning, you admit, but you can do the positioning without a speed buff and the net result is the same. I can tank KT as holy spec and the net result is a dead KT, so I guess that means protection spec is pointless.

Don't you see that your line of reasoning is flawed? "You can do it without the talent, so the talent is worthless"- using that logic, EVERY talent is worthless. There are NO mandatory talents currently.

You can tank Sartharion with a Voidwalker, you don't need a paladin, net result is the same. That proves paladins are worthless.

Now you're just throwing a tantrum and ignoring the logic that you mentioned earlier. I'd recommend taking a good look at your post before you hit the submit button, because you just made an ass of yourself.


edit: Did you just say AD is weak? On progression? So, AD is weak while tanking adds or drakes on Sarth3d? I don't think you'll find too many agreeing with you on that.
Last edited by Belloc on Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:00 pm

kurros wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Oh, and a build which takes Crusade is missing out on some points in deep prot and therefore unacceptable for progression raiding in my view.


You only take 2/5 AD to take Crusade. AD is worthless for progression raiding so this isn't a sacrifice.

6% more threat in most cases, 3% more for a few, vs an ability that will not save you from anything that is dangerous in the current WoW raidgame.

Easy choice for me. Things may change in Ulduar if there is a dangerous but fast-hitting boss that is unlikely to be leapfrogged, but currently AD is very weak. Apparently blizzard agrees because it is being reduced in talent cost.


I strongly disagree with your assessment of AD, but that's offtopic for a thread that's thread off it's original topic.
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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:02 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I don't admit it. When I land after a vortex I need to move to get in front of him, he however, stays put. When we pull him, I tank him where he lands and am in position before he does.


First of all, we clearly have a different definition in mind as far as what "positioning" means. I consider rotating a mob to face away from the raid to be positioning, I guess you don't.

Second, you are either being intentionally vague or you have only killed Malygos by blind luck, because beyond the mob facing, it's also important to stand at max range from your healers and DPS so that the dot from the breath doesn't hit anyone in the raid. This requires some additional movement. I suppose you could kill Malygos without moving if you instead force all of your healers and DPS to move twice as much as they need to, but you would be needlessly making the fight harder than it should be and you would be reducing their DPS by making them spend more time moving. The strategy I use involves the tank moving one direction and the rest of the raiding moving the other direction, and I can't really see any advantage in doing it how you describe.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:08 pm

Consider the fact that Malygos used to breathe in the position he landed in, meaning that the raid had to move back anyway. Leaving him in that position means that DPS can start on him right away without having to chase after him, resulting in faster kills.

And since he has 9 Malygos25 kills, it obviously works.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:14 pm

kurros wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I don't admit it. When I land after a vortex I need to move to get in front of him, he however, stays put. When we pull him, I tank him where he lands and am in position before he does.


First of all, we clearly have a different definition in mind as far as what "positioning" means. I consider rotating a mob to face away from the raid to be positioning, I guess you don't.

Second, you are either being intentionally vague or you have only killed Malygos by blind luck, because beyond the mob facing, it's also important to stand at max range from your healers and DPS so that the dot from the breath doesn't hit anyone in the raid. This requires some additional movement. I suppose you could kill Malygos without moving if you instead force all of your healers and DPS to move twice as much as they need to, but you would be needlessly making the fight harder than it should be and you would be reducing their DPS by making them spend more time moving. The strategy I use involves the tank moving one direction and the rest of the raiding moving the other direction, and I can't really see any advantage in doing it how you describe.


I'm not sure how me not moving malygos implies that I'm somehow in explosion range for my raid. When I land from a vortex, I move out in front of him (North) and my raid moves behind him (South). Malygos however, doesn't move, and I'm in position before he lands, therefore it doesn't matter at all how fast I got there, which is why PoJ has no effect in this case. Ideally he's in the same spot each time so that the sparks that have been killed are still easily accessible by the DPS.
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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
I'm not sure how me not moving malygos implies that I'm somehow in explosion range for my raid. When I land from a vortex, I move out in front of him (North) and my raid moves behind him (South). Malygos however, doesn't move, and I'm in position before he lands, therefore it doesn't matter at all how fast I got there, which is why PoJ has no effect in this case. Ideally he's in the same spot each time so that the sparks that have been killed are still easily accessible by the DPS.


Ah, so you do move. That is the exact same strategy I use.

But you being in position before he lands is a little hard to believe, he lands almost immediately after vortex, and vortex will sometimes drop you in the south side of the room. Did you mean you were in position before he breaths?

So tell me, what causes your raid to wipe on Malygos? I am not an expert on the fight by any means, but I have done it a few times, and every kill we had came from a clean phase 1 with no more than 1-2 players dying. If everyone survives phase 1, phase 2 is a joke and phase 3 even more so. Further, the only reason anyone dies in phase 1 is because they don't position fast enough. By moving Malygos, I can sometimes prevent a slow player from dying.

Now, if the ONLY reason we wipe is because a slow player dies, wouldn't that make positioning Malygos the most important aspect of the fight?

What part of the fight is challenging, other than the positioning? The DPS is a joke, sparks are pretty trivial with 2 DKs, and even if he eats one it's not an issue thanks to cooldowns. What part of the fight makes it so important to have 2 talent points in Seals of the Pure over PoJ?
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
kurros wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I don't admit it. When I land after a vortex I need to move to get in front of him, he however, stays put. When we pull him, I tank him where he lands and am in position before he does.


First of all, we clearly have a different definition in mind as far as what "positioning" means. I consider rotating a mob to face away from the raid to be positioning, I guess you don't.

Second, you are either being intentionally vague or you have only killed Malygos by blind luck, because beyond the mob facing, it's also important to stand at max range from your healers and DPS so that the dot from the breath doesn't hit anyone in the raid. This requires some additional movement. I suppose you could kill Malygos without moving if you instead force all of your healers and DPS to move twice as much as they need to, but you would be needlessly making the fight harder than it should be and you would be reducing their DPS by making them spend more time moving. The strategy I use involves the tank moving one direction and the rest of the raiding moving the other direction, and I can't really see any advantage in doing it how you describe.


I'm not sure how me not moving malygos implies that I'm somehow in explosion range for my raid. When I land from a vortex, I move out in front of him (North) and my raid moves behind him (South). Malygos however, doesn't move, and I'm in position before he lands, therefore it doesn't matter at all how fast I got there, which is why PoJ has no effect in this case. Ideally he's in the same spot each time so that the sparks that have been killed are still easily accessible by the DPS.


I know this is offtopic but I am really curious: Using this strategy how do you deal with sparks that originate behind you? (NW/NE)
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Postby Zironic » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:25 pm

I know this is offtopic but I am really curious: Using this strategy how do you deal with sparks that originate behind you? (NW/NE)


The idea is afaik to use Death Grip. However our guild never has deathknights so we change direction each vortex.
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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:30 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
I know this is offtopic but I am really curious: Using this strategy how do you deal with sparks that originate behind you? (NW/NE)


The idea is, out of 3-4 attempts you will get lucky once and get 0 north sparks :P

Actually, "north" is just a guideline, if the spark is coming directly from the north I will move northeast or northwest and say so in vent, and the DK will deathgrip the spark.

Also, malygos eating 1 spark is fine. That is what divine protection is for. It's only really an issue if it happens more than once, or if you are going for a 6 minute kill.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:33 pm

kurros wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
I'm not sure how me not moving malygos implies that I'm somehow in explosion range for my raid. When I land from a vortex, I move out in front of him (North) and my raid moves behind him (South). Malygos however, doesn't move, and I'm in position before he lands, therefore it doesn't matter at all how fast I got there, which is why PoJ has no effect in this case. Ideally he's in the same spot each time so that the sparks that have been killed are still easily accessible by the DPS.


Ah, so you do move. That is the exact same strategy I use.

But you being in position before he lands is a little hard to believe, he lands almost immediately after vortex, and vortex will sometimes drop you in the south side of the room. Did you mean you were in position before he breaths?

So tell me, what causes your raid to wipe on Malygos? I am not an expert on the fight by any means, but I have done it a few times, and every kill we had came from a clean phase 1 with no more than 1-2 players dying. If everyone survives phase 1, phase 2 is a joke and phase 3 even more so. Further, the only reason anyone dies in phase 1 is because they don't position fast enough. By moving Malygos, I can sometimes prevent a slow player from dying.

Now, if the ONLY reason we wipe is because a slow player dies, wouldn't that make positioning Malygos the most important aspect of the fight?

What part of the fight is challenging, other than the positioning? The DPS is a joke, sparks are pretty trivial with 2 DKs, and even if he eats one it's not an issue thanks to cooldowns. What part of the fight makes it so important to have 2 talent points in Seals of the Pure over PoJ?


I face north while I'm in the vortex, maybe that makes a difference. I'm definitely in place before Malygos lands. Our wipes, if we have any, are almost always in phase 3, usually caused by new folks learning how to group up on a dragon.

Sabin, we have DK's death grip the sparks to the raid.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:34 pm

kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
I know this is offtopic but I am really curious: Using this strategy how do you deal with sparks that originate behind you? (NW/NE)


The idea is, out of 3-4 attempts you will get lucky once and get 0 north sparks :P

Actually, "north" is just a guideline, if the spark is coming directly from the north I will move northeast or northwest and say so in vent, and the DK will deathgrip the spark.

Also, malygos eating 1 spark is fine. That is what divine protection is for. It's only really an issue if it happens more than once, or if you are going for a 6 minute kill.


If you have a spark coming in behind you that is going to be problematic, you can just have ranged kill it, often this will give you the spark buff for super happy fun time threat.
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Postby Khayne » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:45 pm

kurros wrote:Easy choice for me. Things may change in Ulduar if there is a dangerous but fast-hitting boss that is unlikely to be leapfrogged, but currently AD is very weak. Apparently blizzard agrees because it is being reduced in talent cost.


Not getting into the PoJ debate, but would you say that 1-handed weapon spec is damn weak too, and ofc imp. hoj for ret pvp since both of them are getting reduced talent cost aswell?

I don't mind someone saying sotp is weak (it ain't that important to me either), but tanks slamming on mitigation talents usually irk me abit :?
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:48 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
kurros wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
I know this is offtopic but I am really curious: Using this strategy how do you deal with sparks that originate behind you? (NW/NE)


The idea is, out of 3-4 attempts you will get lucky once and get 0 north sparks :P

Actually, "north" is just a guideline, if the spark is coming directly from the north I will move northeast or northwest and say so in vent, and the DK will deathgrip the spark.

Also, malygos eating 1 spark is fine. That is what divine protection is for. It's only really an issue if it happens more than once, or if you are going for a 6 minute kill.


If you have a spark coming in behind you that is going to be problematic, you can just have ranged kill it, often this will give you the spark buff for super happy fun time threat.


Ah, I see.

Just to clarify: I was wondering how Fridmarr does it with his stationary Malygos strategy. My guild's method of doing it has someone calling out which direction the spark has spawned from during the Vortex, and me pointing Malygos in the opposite direction so that the spark naturally wanders to the middle and dies there.
Last edited by Sabindeus on Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:49 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Sabin, we have DK's death grip the sparks to the raid.


Are we talking about 10 or 25 man? Because we do the same thing, except we usually only have 1 DK and more sparks than his Death Grip cooldown can move.
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