(0/56/15) Putting out the most DPS as a Tank

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Postby Martie » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:15 am

Anyone ran some math on spreading the talent points between the two?
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Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:59 pm

The reason why conviction doesn't do well for DPS is that substantial parts of our DPS are Holy Shield, Consecrate, and Seal of Corruption, none of which can crit. Presumably it's better in a single-target situation.

EDIT: Also, I would assume that each talent point spent is as valuable as the previous. A 3% boost to seals is a 3% boost to seals regardless of previous points, and talented crit doesn't have DR that I'm aware of.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:17 pm

I think at a certain point conviction will overtake SotP.

From last week's Naxx WWS, looking at boss fights only, my damage breakdown was

ShoR 1.4M 27%
HotR 940k 17%
Swing 771k 14%
Cons 563k 10%
Blood Corruption 559k 10%
Holy Shield 459k 8%
Judgment 356k 7%

I was running 3 points in SotP last week.

Looking at how far down the dot and judgment were, and how the top 3 damage dealing abilities (58% of my damage done) would have benefited from Conviction and got no benefit from SotP, I'm wondering how this week's parse will look (I'm currently running 5 points in Conviction).
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Postby Discus » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 am

Any conclusion on a Max DPS yet still viable tank build then? I sure could use the threat increase.
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:21 am

You are unlikely to get a consensus here. 0/51/20 is probably the most dps.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:51 pm

Both talents put out about 3.5% DPS at 5/5. Exact number varies depending on gear choices - eg, stacking BV helps Conviction.

With my gear, and my play-style, SotP wins on DPS by a small margin. The 5/60/6 build also suits my guild make-up.

In TPS terms - they are NOT equivalent. There is no circumstance in which Conviction is close. Reason is that ~30% of the DPS boost from Conviction is from white damage boost with only a 43% threat multiplier.

Conviction is better if:
• You off-heal a lot
• You have BIG NUMBER SYNDROME

That said, it is very deep in Ret, you are losing out on required end-game tanking talents. I do not think Conviction-based builds are viable for end game tanking, even in 3.0, basically because of two fights:

• 6-min Malygos. TPS requirements mean you need to pick highest TPS build. Not "funnest" build. You also can't afford to skip any mitigation talents, as you will be trying it with only 5-6 healers in 25-man.

• Sarth+3, unless you limit yourself to add-tank and have no Unholy DK. My guild's analysis is that Paladin should be tanking drakes, so I'm switching from Add-duty to drakes.
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:20 pm

A paladin is unlikely to be tanking Malygos (25) even tho' it's possible. Should it be required a respec is simple.

Same with Sarth +3, pallies should be on adds. If drake tanking is required, again, a respec is quite simple.

For everything else, max mitigation and max threat hardly matters anymore. Why limit your dps in an ez-mode expansion?
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Postby knaughty » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:27 pm

Wolvar wrote:A paladin is unlikely to be tanking Malygos (25) even tho' it's possible. Should it be required a respec is simple.

What? Why? What else is a prot paladin going to do at Malygos?

We're a perfectly acceptable MT for the job, I tanked our progression 10 & 25 man kills. If you're doing the 6-minute kill, there's no second tank present.
Wolvar wrote:Same with Sarth +3, pallies should be on adds. If drake tanking is required, again, a respec is quite simple.

I disagree. We're actually best on drakes. Both DKs and Warriors are better add tanks. DKs due to better AE tanking capability and add-pickup tools, warriors due to better mobility.

Paladins are best Drake tanks due to massive burst TPS and extremely high threat on secondary targets via passive use of 969.
Wolvar wrote:For everything else, max mitigation and max threat hardly matters anymore. Why limit your dps in an ez-mode expansion?

If you're going to respec to do you job, and your job is DPS... spec ret. If your job is to tank, spec tanking.

If you want to come up with some hybrid prot/ret build for farming content you outgear, well, WTF cares?
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:36 pm

Obviously the OP cares, else this thread wouldn't be here.

Given the number of threads of this type, I'd say there seems to be quite a few people who care..


As to Maly, we typically bring 2-3 tanks. Obviously we aren't min/maxxing for a stupid achievement. talk about "WTF cares". :p
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Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:39 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I think at a certain point conviction will overtake SotP.

From last week's Naxx WWS, looking at boss fights only, my damage breakdown was

ShoR 1.4M 27%
HotR 940k 17%
Swing 771k 14%
Cons 563k 10%
Blood Corruption 559k 10%
Holy Shield 459k 8%
Judgment 356k 7%

I was running 3 points in SotP last week.

Looking at how far down the dot and judgment were, and how the top 3 damage dealing abilities (58% of my damage done) would have benefited from Conviction and got no benefit from SotP, I'm wondering how this week's parse will look (I'm currently running 5 points in Conviction).


I just took my recount of my Naxx clear + Archavon + Malygos (MT'd all the content) and did the math about how much conviction adds and how much SotP would add, my totals:

Total Conviction 3% = 198027
Total SotP 9% = 149317

My damage %'s were:
Shield 19.5%
Hammer 19.4%
Consecration 18.4%
Melee 13.3%
Blood corruption 7.9%
Holy shield 6.9%
Judgement of corruption 5.9%
Ret aura / Hammer of wrath / AS / etc 2% or lower.
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:44 pm

You fail at math. :wink:

15% of 13.8% is not 9% (it's 2%)

Which spec did you have and what were the total numbers for each? ...and how the hell was your swing percentage so low?
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Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:48 pm

Wolvar wrote:You fail at math. :wink:

15% of 13.8% is not 9%

Which spec did you have and what were the total numbers for each? ...and how the hell was your swing percentage so low?


I run with 3 points in conviction and none in SotP, which is what the totals at the end mean, I have 3% crit from conviction and compare that to only 3 points in SotP.

My total damage done was 12,569,801 for the night.
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:59 pm

Oh, so you aren't saying sotp was a 9% damage increase.

Well I have no idea how you extracted your conviction damage, but 1.1% overall increase for sotp seems a little low, but then so do your percentages for seal/judgement.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:03 pm

Wolvar wrote:Oh, so you aren't saying sotp was a 9% damage increase.

Well I have no idea how you extracted your conviction damage, but 1.1% overall increase for sotp seems a little low, but then so do your percentages for seal/judgement.


Yeah, since it's an entire raid and not singular boss fights my rotation is a bit different and AOE abilities go up, Hammer/consecration/holy shield, etc.

My math basically went like this: Took 3% of the total attacks and took avg crit damage and subtracted avg normal damage and that was my total damage increase from conviction. I did that for each individual attack that can crit and totaled it all up. I then took the total damage of judgement/corruption (after taking out conviction) and multiplied by SotP %.
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Postby Consecrate » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:13 am

I don't see why you'd want more than the very minimum in prot?

Most of the talents are pure fail and help in no way towards keeping you alive (some like AD just epic fail most of the time, being leapfrogged etc) or others like the thunderclap thing are much easier done with a warrior who can apply it to tons more mobs and rely on it for AoE threat.

I honestly cannot see why you would spec anything but 51/20, including taking Reckoning (it's a DPS upgrade and it's points that you'd otherwise spend in erm.. I dunno, imp hoj?).
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