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[25] Problems with Patchwerk

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[25] Problems with Patchwerk

Postby Jagang » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:08 am

A long time reader of maintankadin, this is my first post after repeatedly getting hung up on Patchwerk the past two weeks. I've researched his method of choosing people for hatefuls, watched the videos, and tried different strategies (2 OTs vs. 1 OT focused by healers).

I guess we're at a point where people are wondering if the tanks are simply undergeared. Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &n=Jaggang

My questions are, is my gear sufficient? And has anyone here seen success OTing with a paladin? I'm about to resort to just recruiting a pug Feral Tank with 40k hp.

Just a little more background, tried it with 7 healers last fight with 2 on MT and 5 on me (3 Paladins, Priest, and Druid). Things always go well until I usually doge/parry 3-4 Hatefuls in a row, and then suddenly eat 2 Hatefuls in a row. Perhaps Paladins are just inherently hard to precast/react with their heals? Or perhaps with that many Paladins, a 2nd OT is needed to relieve stress? (Our initial attempts with 2 OTs produced dismal results).

Appreciate any advice, and hope this thread helps other tankadins struggling to down Patch for their shield.
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Postby Greddy » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:40 am

Your healers can never reactivly healing the hateful strikes tanks.
THe best geared tank should be the hatefulstrike tank, so if you usualy have guild MT (or best geared tank) to MainTank patch, you are doing it wrong.

The hateful strikes comes in every second, also 1 second between the each strike, having a minimum of HP and stack avoidance is a good idea, since you will get two shotted eitherway if you have 30k hp or 34k hp. so having aavoidance trinket with avoidance use is a blizz on this fight.

having a third tank to also tank hatefulls will buy your healers 1,2 second more time to heal the mainhateful tank, also 2,4 second between hateful strikes. Having only one tank to take hatefuls, means that the healers have to have 22-24k HPS, instead of 12 HPS with two hateful tanks.
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Postby Yukionna » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:05 pm

A guild I was in previously had a lot of problems on patchwerk..

In my new guild we did him last night as a progression kill (i think.. as a guild) 2nd attempt (first attempt was a healing assignment mistake).

We had 3 tanks... Unholy DK MTing patch and me (usually MT) and a frost DK taking the bolts. Both OTs had around 35k~37k buffed.

We brought too many healers so we had 2 on each tank, so it worked in our favor for that fight.

We had a LOT of melee... from what I understand patch sends his bolt to the next person in melee range with the highest HP. So there were times when melee took a bolt, but it wouldn't kill them. We even left some at 50% health for the rest of the fight. <-- don't do this if you are running out of people in melee range though.

Just keep your healers healing and it will work out.
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Postby Samilyn » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:25 pm

Yukionna wrote:We had a LOT of melee... from what I understand patch sends his bolt to the next person in melee range with the highest HP.


That's not true. The only eligible people are the 2nd, 3rd, (4th?) person on aggro in melee range. Among those, whoever has the highest HP takes the hit. So, for example, if one of your tanks DC'd for the first minute of the fight, they would only take a hateful strike if enough melee died that they became 3rd in aggro. The fact that the tank has 12k more HP than the melee does not make him a hateful tank.


Yukionna wrote:Just keep your healers healing and it will work out.


This is true.
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Postby Pallypete » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:33 pm

Paladins are the BEST OT healers on this fight. Heck, 3 paladins could probably heal the whole fight themselves with Bacon. Have the first two beacon different OT's, and have another one beacon the MT and heal OT's. The rest of your healers could pretty much DPS after that. (Though they can just top people off as needed). Beacon basically turns every paladin into two healers for this fight.

And Paladins are best for MTing patchwerk due to his insanely fast attack speed. All those blocked hits = mucho damage reduction. Nearly every attempt we've ever done it's been me as MT, but randomly last time the Warrior tank said for the DK to MT it (didn't bother speaking up cause I wanted to see how it would go), and somewhere along the way the DK got splattered and suddenly I was MT.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:33 pm

A third tank will make a huge difference here. By using just one OT you are forcing more burst on your OT. The issue isn't that you don't have enough healing, and you certainly have ample gear, it's that the healers have to make sure big heals are landing every second, which is a difficult coordination issue. Generally when guilds are using the 1 OT model, it's not a progression kill and it's a Druid OT because they fit the damage type pretty well. They make take more damage but are more forgiving on the timing aspect.
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Postby Invisusira » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:38 pm

Fridmarr wrote:A third tank will make a huge difference here.

^ This. One OT in 25m patch is really not a reliable way to do this fight.

Best geared tanks OT, 2 healers per tank.
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Postby Barsine » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:27 pm

We usually have like 5 healers in our naxx runs. Of which 1 is a holy paladin (me). Got a warr (the MT) as main tank and a feral with ~50k hp as the only OT. I put beacon on the MT and just spam away.
Our kills are usually around the 3minute mark, which means that I have enough mana to spam HL through the whole fight. That together with the holy priest spamming Flash Heals is enough to keep the OT up.
The MT is getting healed by the resto shaman and a beacon while the 2 remaining healers are "healing" the safety OT, who barely takes any hits at all since it's quite easy to keep a feral tank above a warrior hp wise.
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Postby divinituss » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:13 am

If your highest HP OT stack lots of avoidance it is possible that the lower HP OT be assigned one healer only, while the higher HP one have 3 healers for safety reasons.
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Postby Ashmadai » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:32 pm

My guild hosted a 25 pug of Naxx this week and the OTs were not very geared, and we only used 5 healers, and it was almost ridiculous how easy it was. Kel'thuzad was the only fight we even had some wipes on.
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Postby Panzerdin » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:59 pm

Your mistake is to have only one HS tank. Was I wasting my time writing a guide?
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Postby TheBelloc » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:01 pm

My guild puts the two highest EH tanks on hatefuls, and the 'worst' geared tank on MT duty on this fight. Hardly ever have problems. Typically only when healers DC is the problem. I once DC'd pretty early in the fight and came back in 3rd place on threat about a minute later, still tanking hatefuls. That was pretty cool.
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Postby Karnadas » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:04 am

The other night we had a blood DK (was unholy at first, then wanted to see how the extra blood healing would work out [pretty damn well, iirc]) and feral OT and me MT.

The healers had a bit of trouble at first, but for many of them, it was their first time seeing the fight.

I do have to say, it was interesting when I was about to pull and the warlocks and mages were like "what do we do?" My response? "Open recount and try to get as high as you can"

For reference
DK tank:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Cathanatha

Feral tank:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... nd&n=Igoar

Myself:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Karnadas

And yes, I know I need to make a few changes ;)

note: The Druid seems to change from kitty to bear gear a lot when he logs out, so don't worry about his crit+ap leg enchant and think he's tanking.
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Postby amh » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:08 am

As is the case on any wotlk-encounter: If your tanks are dying, bring more holy paladins :|

Bacon of awesomeness is just too overpowered here. And as others have mentioned, this is not a reactive healing fight. It´s a 3-5 minute spam-fest using the biggest heals possible.
I used to play a paladin.
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Postby Jagang » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:13 am

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone's comments and suggestions.

Last night, we finally downed Patch on our first attempt of the night. I'll try to provide as much info for anyone else struggling on this.

Tanks
Paladin MTing Patchwerk (He is usually the OT)
Paladin OTing Hatefuls (I am usually the MT)
Warrior Backup OTing Hatefuls

Healers
2 Paladins on MT (Both have beacons on the OTs)
3 Healers on Primary OT (Priest, Druid, Shammy)
3 Healers on Backup OT (Priest, Shammy, Paladin)

At the end of the fight, I received the large majority of the Hatefuls, due to the healers keeping me topped off almost the whole time. The backup OT did end up taking a few hits, though. The two paladins healers on the MT was by far enough to keep him up as well as dish out extra heals to the OTs through beacon.

A few people commented 'The problem was you only had 1 OT taking hatefuls, idiot.' Many other guides I've read have found it benefecial to the healers to let them focus on one target versus two. However, it seems for most of those groups they had a 40k health druid or a DK with very high dodge/parry.

In our initial attempts with 3 tanks, we only had 6 healers total in the raid. For a progression kill, I think the main ingredient was the extra 2 healers we eventually invited. I know some people will say 'Man, we farm that with 4 Healers and 2 Tanks total.' All of our healers were pretty well geared with all heroic epics or 10-man gear, and 6 was clearly insufficient for us.

Hope this helps, in the end like others have mentioned, it's just about the healers ability to pre-heal and not react. Or in the case of our success: just bring 8 Healers, :D

PS- The enrage timer was not a problem at all with DPS decently geared, but nothing special. Everyone had at least 2K+ and beat him with 30+ seconds to spare.
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