[10/25] Sartharion +3 Fire Resist Theroycrafting...

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[10/25] Sartharion +3 Fire Resist Theroycrafting...

Postby Grizwold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:46 am

**Needs a decent revamp, and dont have time atm, Mechanics for bosses have been figured out and 500FR is needed to push 30% resists or lower off the table, which causes a large problem with a major FR set**

This method DOES work, WWS/Fraps aren't available yet, I will be tanking it again next week and hoping they work that time. Tanking gear put me at (Pre-buffs): 26700 life, .8% chance to be crit (yes i was under the cap by .8%), 22% dodge, 19% parry, 18% block, 418 Fire resist (with flask/aura), which left me at a meager 27k after the aura.

Now we all know sarths breath mechanic right?
Difficutly: 10-man (25-man)
Base: 8750-11250 (10938-14062)
Shad Aura, +100%
Vesp. Disc., +75%
Shad. Disc., +50%
When all 3 are up, breaths are:
45937-59062 (57424-73825) (ouch)

How about the resist mechanics? Source
415 fire resist would put you at a cap that amounts to ~50% reduction. Specifically:(*This fit is not perfect i still took some breaths with 418FR that were only 30% mitigated with ~3% frequency, and I am not sure why)
40% reduction ~ 25% of the time
50% reduction ~ 50% of the time
60% reduction ~ 25% of the time

That means a MAX (all drakes/adds) Fire Breath if you are wearing 415 Fire resist is (before spell reduction % talents):
27562-35437 (34454-44295) ~25% of the time
22969-29531 (28712-36913) ~ 50% of the time
18375-23625 (22970-29530) ~ 25% of the time

Alot more manageable but still painful. However now we can figure out how much damage we would actually take with talents. 6% from Righteous Fury, 6% from Guarded by the Light, 3% from Sanctuary and 3% from Shield of the templar, amounting to a (1-.94x.94x.97x.97) 16.87% reduction. Taking this into consideration the breaths are now down to a MAX of:
22912-29459 (28642-36822) ~25% of the time
19094-24549 (23868-30686) ~ 50% of the time
15275-19640 (19094-24548) ~ 25% of the time

This sheds a glimmer of hope... This means that if you are wearing 415 Fire Resist, for the 10 man you only need to have ([29459 + 1] / .75) = 39280 Buffed health (before the -25% aura) to survive every breath, or 49096 health in the 25 man (not very reasonable). The problem would still stand that after the breath you more than likely will be killed by the next melee unless your healers time your heals well.

Now the biggest problem? How do you get to these Fire Resist and health values while attempting to stay defense capped? Let's break it down.

Non-LW, Non-Alc
(At the moment the 2% reduction meta is actually a +2% Resistance bonus on gear resistance.)
Fire Resist aura - 130FR
Flask of Lesser Resistance - 50FR
Arcanum of the Flame's Soul - 25FR
Encahnt Cloak: Superior Fire Resist - 20 FR
Thats 225 from Easy Buff/Enchants which leaves us with 190 to go. Now comes the hard part...
Go find yourself (on the AH sometimes) 3 greens or old FR epics. For example I use, a pair of level 78 "of Fire Protection" plate pants with 55FR and stuck a 20 FR arcanum on them. The old Epic FR gloves with an 8 FR armor kit on it and the old FR Chest with an 8 FR armor kit on it, totaling to exactly 416.

The problem? Lower life coupled with the -25% health makes your total life faily low. If you can get buffed enough to get your health over 30k while doing this, a missed cool-down is not a guaranteed wipe anymore.


The good news? For any pallies that are looking for professions, if you go Leatherworking and Alchemy, the situation gets ALOT better...

130FR from aura
82FR from Lesser flask from Mixology
60FR enchant for wrists (LW only)
25FR from head arcanum
20FR from Cloak enchant
317FR from EASY sources, so you only need 98FR which is at most, 2 pieces of FR if you find lvl 75+ greens "of fire protection" and your heath shouldnt be any lower than 28-29k or so unbuffed.

Feel free to add whatever you like, I will try to keep this updated, and if I have any errors please let me know so i can fix them, thanks.

-Grizwold

P.S. Thanks to Viycktor, Belloc, and Evilnuff for various links/information.
Last edited by Grizwold on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:48 am, edited 18 times in total.
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Postby Grizwold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:47 am

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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:15 am

The problem? I am at 26500 life unbuffed with this setup. Which with raid buffs puts me no more than 30-31k life. Couple this is the -25% life debuff and your down to 22500 or so. This isnt terrible news but its not where we need to be for the 25 man. However for 10 man, this works, as every breath you can use some cooldown in your raid to boost your effective health over 25k and make the breathes survivable 96% of the time, and trivial more than 80%.


Err... Why wear terrible FR gear and have to chain cooldowns when you can just wear your best normal gear and chain cooldowns?
On top of the fact that 10-man breaths are 100% survivable WITHOUT cooldowns wearing normal gear.

Additionally, a tank gearing this way will survive the breaths (maybe) and then proceed to die to the physical damage once one or two drakes are dead.
And rellying on resistance creates completely uncontrollable "You die." scenarios which would not occur for a normally geared tank.

People have looked at resistance stacking before, and its shown its self to be inefficient without epic-quality level 80 gear.

The frost resist peices, on the other hand, are worth looking at simply due to the quantity of stamina.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:38 am

Resistance no longer works on a 0 -> 25% -> 50% -> 75% -> 100% scale. The max reduction is something like 60%, if I am not mistaken, and the scale uses 10% increments.

Joanadark wrote:
The problem? I am at 26500 life unbuffed with this setup. Which with raid buffs puts me no more than 30-31k life. Couple this is the -25% life debuff and your down to 22500 or so. This isnt terrible news but its not where we need to be for the 25 man. However for 10 man, this works, as every breath you can use some cooldown in your raid to boost your effective health over 25k and make the breathes survivable 96% of the time, and trivial more than 80%.


On top of the fact that 10-man breaths are 100% survivable WITHOUT cooldowns wearing normal gear.

I wasn't aware that anyone except druids could gain that amount of health. Vesperon's debuff cannot be removed any longer, which was how other classes survived the breath without cooldowns.
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Postby Grizwold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:50 am

Joanadark wrote:On top of the fact that 10-man breaths are 100% survivable WITHOUT cooldowns wearing normal gear.


Show me a tank with 47250/.75 = 63000 buffed life (NO COOLDOWNS), and ill retract.

joanadark wrote:Err... Why wear terrible FR gear and have to chain cooldowns when you can just wear your best normal gear and chain cooldowns?


Who said anything about chaining cooldowns? if you only need 25k or so after the debuff to not be killed by the breath 96% of the time. I'd rather do that and then use C/D as a backup rather than a missed c/d being a wipe, it makes a missed c/d only a 4% chance at a wipe (and taking trivial damage from the breath 80% of the time).

joanadark wrote:Additionally, a tank gearing this way will survive the breaths (maybe) and then proceed to die to the physical damage once one or two drakes are dead.

once two drakes are dead, the breaths are comically low, and only physical damage comes into play, which wont be close to 1-2 shotting the tank, maybe when the third drake dies it will ramp up to dangerous levels, but when the breath is all but ignorable, you just do a quick tank swap.

joanadark wrote:People have looked at resistance stacking before, and its shown its self to be inefficient without epic-quality level 80 gear.

And following it, the #1 reason it was tossed out is that you were unable to get enough stam to make it worthwhile, whereas if you full buff/enchant/and flask(which wasnt initially input to the theories) the values are much better/closer now.

belloc wrote:Resistance no longer works on a 0 -> 25% -> 50% -> 75% -> 100% scale. The max reduction is something like 60%, if I am not mistaken, and the scale uses 10% increments.

Going to look up this source, but I hadn't seen any hard evidence of this, more that they just added %s to make the reduction more of a normal curve. but the overall was still ~75%

I am assuming its not updated, but the WoW website still shows the same % reductions... http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/bas ... ances.html
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Postby kram » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:08 am

Youre looking at 10k+ melee hits after a drake or two dies sitting at ~25k HP and factoring in twilight torment damage and lava strikes you're going to have a hard time living through those 50% resists assuming the resist gear worked as it did before 3.0. Are you crit capped in your FR gear?

Also its quite some work stacking a raid to make sure you have every singe hitpoint buff in 10 man.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:11 am

I wasn't aware that anyone except druids could gain that amount of health. Vesperon's debuff cannot be removed any longer, which was how other classes survived the breath without cooldowns.


My guild has a druid, a dk, a prot paladin, and multiple warriors who all have 50k HP+ sets for tanking sartharion.

Show me a tank with 47250/.75 = 63000 buffed life (NO COOLDOWNS), and ill retract.


You dont need that much health. so......ok....

Who said anything about chaining cooldowns? if you only need 25k or so after the debuff to not be killed by 96% of the time. I'd rather do that and then use C/D as a backup rather than a missed c/d being a wipe, it makes a missed c/d only a 4% chance at a wipe.


You did, let me quote you:

"Couple this is the -25% life debuff and your down to 22500 or so. This isnt terrible news but its not where we need to be for the 25 man. However for 10 man, this works, as every breath you can use some cooldown in your raid to boost your effective health over 25k..."

Your arguements are also inconsistant with the reality of the tank damage intake. In your scenario, EH is so low that if a blaze gets on you, you die. If a meteor lands on you, you die. If you dont avoid a swing when a healer is moving out of a void zone, you die. If a physical swing lands close to the same time stamp as a breath, you die.

I think you probably are just not understanding what it is like to heal this fight, or what makes the tank live or die from the healers perspective. Thats a common and forgivable mistake for a tank.
Throughout the fight, the sarth tank is going to be constantly having large heals chain casted onto them without pause. All you are doing is requiring the exact same thing be done, but with most of it pointless overhealing, and introducing a needlessly large probability of the tank simply taking unhealable damage despite this.

once two drakes are dead, the breaths are comically low, and only physical damage comes into play, which wont be close to 1-2 shotting the tank, maybe when the third drake dies it will ramp up to dangerous levels, but when the breath is all but ignorable, you just do a quick tank swap.


Clearly you havent healed this.
The lower HP in a resist set, not to mention the drastically lower armor and other mitigation stats, and the assured lack of defense cap mean that physical damage WILL certainly be capable of 2-shotting the tank with 2 drakes dead.

And following it, the #1 reason it was tossed out is that you were unable to get enough stam to make it worthwhile, whereas if you full buff/enchant/and flask(which wasnt initially input to the theories) the values are much better/closer now.


You're honestly telling me that all these guilds are just stupid enough to simply have "forgotten" about things like FR librams, buffs, and enchants?
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:12 am

In conclusion, back up your theory with a WWS of a successful kill where the tank was wearing FR gear, or all you've got are semantics.
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Postby Grizwold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:39 am

kram wrote:Youre looking at 10k+ melee hits after a drake or two dies sitting at ~25k HP and factoring in twilight torment damage and lava strikes you're going to have a hard time living through those 50% resists assuming the resist gear worked as it did before 3.0. Are you crit capped in your FR gear?

Also its quite some work stacking a raid to make sure you have every singe hitpoint buff in 10 man.

You are attacking when twilight torment is up? None of our tanks ever have. Crit capped yes. Stacking a raid? Not so much. 2 pallies (ones ret), holy priest, Resto Druid, warrior drake tank. That has me up just over 34k atm.

Joanadark wrote:You dont need that much health. so......ok....


dont want to link the WWS, but the log file entry is:
20:37'11.053 Sartharion Flame Breath hits XXXXX for 38766 Fire. (3244 Resisted) = 42010, 42010/.75 = 56013 life buffed. Might be able to get a druid that high, but others, good luck. (this wasnt even the highest possible breath)

Your arguements are also inconsistant with the reality of the tank damage intake. In your scenario, EH is so low that if a blaze gets on you, you die. If a meteor lands on you, you die. If you dont avoid a swing when a healer is moving out of a void zone, you die. If a physical swing lands close to the same time stamp as a breath, you die.

So 2/3 of your argument are accounted for here, fire damge is mitigated to pathetic levels. As far as avoiding a swing and the 10kish with 2 drakes dead, its a decent bit lower due to being unhitable (blocks), as well as fire damage at that point being laughable at best, so it takes at least 3 consecutive hits MINIMUM (with no heals) to kill you. Frankly I trust my healers to heal me at least once ever 3-4 seconds minimum.

Clearly you havent healed this.
The lower HP in a resist set, not to mention the drastically lower armor and other mitigation stats, and the assured lack of defense cap mean that physical damage WILL certainly be capable of 2-shotting the tank with 2 drakes dead.

Not really, I am still def capped in my FR and just under 26.7k unbuffed (~34kish buffed). Once 2 drakes are dead, sarth only melees for ~11k based on the armor values and 1500-1600 BV your down under 9.5k hits. Not only that but at ~ 25000 life (34.7k pre -25%) it would take ~3-4 hits due to AD. 2 hits drops you to ~6000/25000 which brings your EH back up to almost 9500. so assuming you get 0 heals for 4+ seconds and you dont dodge/parry/miss any of 4 concsecutive attacks yes, 4 might kill you. And again I trust my healers to at least PW:S me in that time.

You're honestly telling me that all these guilds are just stupid enough to simply have "forgotten" about things like FR librams, buffs, and enchants?


Or that when they were doing the testing the 50 resist flask that DOES stack with other buffs wasnt in the game? meaning (at least) 1 other item slot had to be sacrificed.

In conclusion, back up your theory with a WWS of a successful kill where the tank was wearing FR gear, or all you've got are semantics.


Will be doing it this week, and will update later.
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Postby kram » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:51 am

As far as avoiding a swing and the 10kish with 2 drakes dead, its a decent bit lower due to being unhitable (blocks), as well as fire damage at that point being laughable at best, so it takes at least 3 consecutive hits MINIMUM (with no heals) to kill you. Frankly I trust my healers to heal me at least once ever 3-4 seconds minimum.


In 10 man its pretty rough for a healer to catch up on a tank in normal gear if they fall behind. You have to account for multiple situations such as a add getting on a healer and causing push back, or making him waste a global or longer to toss a quick heal on themself. or a fissure making the healer move or a lava wall.

I doubt you can get 1600 buffed BV, full FR, enough stam and stay crit capped. You will get gibbed way too often with melee swings (which probably wont be dodged or parried often, and possibly not even blocked) and breaths.
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Postby Mex » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:01 pm

Theoretical max breath on 25 man is something like ~73k iirc. Certainly 50k+ breaths are common enough that a 50k HP tank set wouldn't be worth the saronite it was crafted from. Even on 10 man, you won't be able to just "sit and survive" breaths without cooldowns, regardless of gear.

Joana, on one hand you're criticising all the extra overheal he'll be taking, and on the other you're criticising him for taking more melee damage. There's a bit of a contradiction there. Also, how is maxing resistance gear "assured lack of the defense cap"? Is that anything more than speculation?

Sarth only gains the "2 drakes dead" level of damage when ... surprise surprise, 2 drakes are dead. At this point breaths are manageable, and there's absolutely nothing to stop a tank swap. If healers aren't able to keep a tank safe from being "2 shot" for 10 seconds while he swaps with another tank, then they shouldn't be raiding.

Rather than speculate about his numbers, maybe you should post your own, showing that damage intake would be too high, or in fact how you manage to survive without cooldowns? At the moment your logic is just all over the shop, and frankly seems like it's nothing more than you hating the idea that someone do the fight differently to you?

You need to get out of the mindset that there's only one way to do this fight, which is basically stacking a raid with very specific tank / healer combinations, and consider other alternatives. Not every guild has a 32k+ unbuffed DK tank and a cadre of holy priests and pallies to heal him.

Yes, resistance gear is RNG-based, sometimes it won't help at all. Other times though, it'll not only make the fight doable, but make it significantly easier. If it means that a prot warrior, a prot paladin, a resto druid and a resto shaman can grab a bunch of DPS and succeed in the fight, then who cares?
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:51 pm

Joana, on one hand you're criticising all the extra overheal he'll be taking, and on the other you're criticising him for taking more melee damage. There's a bit of a contradiction there.


No there isnt.
Absolute damage taken is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is the way it is clustered. EDF theory at work right here.

Lets say you have a paladin healer.
Wearing normal gear, the paladin spams you with Holy Lights chain-casted to constantly top you off from the damage you are taking, however all of the damage you take is predictable. Every breath can be lined up with your casting bar, and the physical damage is of minimal enough threat that even the potential for the timings lining up in awkward ways or you having to move around because of bad stuff happening will not result in a dead tank.

Let's say the tank instead follow this guy's setup.
Now, the paladin STILL has to spam chain-casts of holy light into the tank, because the danger of stuff lining up in bad ways or bad luck with the RNG is such that you have absolutely no control over the situation and must preventively pour healing into the tank t stop that happening. Greater mitigation of breaths doesnt make any difference whatsoever in the healer's ability to conserve, nor does it make any difference in the tank's survivability because its consisting of roughly the same relative proportion of tha tank's total life as it would in a normal setup.
However, in this case you have far less effective healing being done, both due to the damage levels, which are lower but more dangerously clustered, and due to the far smaller health pool buffer you have to play with. This means less healing will be copied over through beacon, directly increasing healing requirements elsewhere and reducing your own healer's effectiveness.
Additionally, every time a butterfly flaps it's wings in china, your tank will just die. And theres nothing the paladin could have done about it.


You tell me which one is better.

Also, how is maxing resistance gear "assured lack of the defense cap"? Is that anything more than speculation?


Its the realities of the itemization available. If you stack resistance, you have to give up defense. If you concentrate your defense by using things like Repelling Charge, you sacrifice non-trivial amounts of stamina instead.
There is no good solution.

Feel free to post a chardev setup that manages to both cap resistance, cap defense, and have any reasonable level of health at all, and I'd take this a little more seriously.





Honestly, the main problem I have with this is that I distrust tanking theorycraft that describes incoming damage using words like "pathetic" and "laughable", as they tend to spring from bad tanks who's healers carry the. Not an accusation, just an observation.
Additionally, opening with essentially "I am a math teacher, therefore you should take me seriously when I make unsupported claims" and then never using any math at all in the following post is pretty tacky and smacks of the self-righteous armchair theorycrafting that I'd expect to see on the WoW forums, not here.

I look forward to seeing a wws.
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Postby Ewige » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:45 pm

How about revising the numbers based on Belloc's updated scales? Is it still an FR situation you're making it out to be?

(I'm genuinely curious, never thought about FR here)
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Postby Grizwold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:57 pm

Ewige wrote:How about revising the numbers based on Belloc's updated scales? Is it still an FR situation you're making it out to be?

(I'm genuinely curious, never thought about FR here)


On that scale it wouldnt work out, but looking at WWSes of saph and using Frost rez there, it seems to still be 25/50/75% and not lower 10% points.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:19 pm

Grizwold wrote:
Ewige wrote:How about revising the numbers based on Belloc's updated scales? Is it still an FR situation you're making it out to be?

(I'm genuinely curious, never thought about FR here)


On that scale it wouldnt work out, but looking at WWSes of saph and using Frost rez there, it seems to still be 25/50/75% and not lower 10% points.

It's entirely possible that I am mistaken, or that they changed it back in 3.0.8. I do know that I saw a lot of posts about it within the past couple of months =/
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