Icebane set or tank set...? (Saph)

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Postby majiben » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:26 am

Damage mitigation increases faster than dps output drops. You've also just said you don't notice the difference between 0 and 130 FR but were you aware that the more resist you have the more valuable the next 10 resist you get is? The jump from 130 to 260 is likely to be noticeable.
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Postby Mex » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:22 pm

Yeah but the point I was making is that while DR scales in a relatively linear fashion, healing output does not. You go from small, fast heals, to large, slightly slower heals. There's no real in-between since they removed downranking.

The other concern of course, is the tank's damage intake. It's going to remain steady fairly independantly of any FrR worn. At the moment, I'm able to heal the tank almost exclusively through BoL combined with HL on melee. If I'm healing with FoL, it means I need to also switch and heal the tank individually, whereas if I'm bombing 10k heals on melee, the tank will stay topped off as long as I keep beacon up. Sure, it'd still be more efficient, dropping a HL on the tank every 5-8 seconds and then flashing melee and having beacon on tank to slow the rate at which he drops to the point where I need to HL him again, but to get to that point would require 3 pieces of FrR gear on every DPS, which is just too much of a DPS loss imo.

Ultimately, that's the only way that FrR will ever really have a large enough effect on my efficiency to be justifiable imo, when everyone is basically capped.
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Postby majiben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:48 am

Well you're just speaking from the point of view for a holy paladin who really doesn't have much modulation of their healing in the saph fight. I agree that tanks and healers should not use FR gear but even 1-2 pieces on the dps makes a difference. Yes the other healers can modulate their heals based upon the AoE output. They can use CoH and WG less often thus conserving mana. This is one AoE damage fight where people don't need to be topped off and the smaller the ticks, the longer people can go without expensive heals.
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Postby Mex » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:52 pm

Nobody has the ability to modulate healing output anymore. You cast Spell A, B, C or D, and most of them just do the same thing in different ways.

CoH / WG now have a 6 second CD, which means that on that fight, they're gonna be cast every 6 seconds. It's gonna be hard to reduce damage in-take to the point where those are no-longer the most efficient spells to cast when they're up. PoH and PoM will probably fill in the gaps for Holy Priests, and I'd assume Resto Druids would be dropping rejuv / regrowth on the tank and maybe refreshing some lifebloom stacks. Shamans going from HW to LHW isn't a significant change in efficiency, and chain heal is only really useful when huddled behind blocks.

It would be great if 20% less damage taken meant 20% less healing done, but with no downranking it's very hard to actually realise that in reality. Yes FrR makes a difference, but not a difference to healer mana, simply to damage intake.

Casting less and letting people get low is an absolutely horrible strategy from a healer PoV. People should always be topped off, all it takes is a few unlucky aura + blizzard ticks at 75% instead of 25/0% in a row and that DPS is dead.

Look at TBC. The only time you capped resistance on everybody was Shahraz, and that was with beams hitting for 80%+ of peoples' health pools, and chaining throughout the raid. If a tick of Blizzard was 16,000 damage, then ok, FrR would be mandatory. But that's not really a relevant analogy -- let's look at Gorefiend or some of the Hyjal chaps (names have been purged from my memory). The fights where some guilds had their people use SR neck + cloak to mitigate the very high amounts of shadow damage tossed around on those fights. Apart from the fact that this was only done because they had the SR gear for Shahraz already, it was effective primarily because of downranking. You could cast a R2 Chain Heal on someone who only took 50% damage from a shadowbolt or something instead of max ranking. It made a serious impact on healer mana.

The one time FrR will be useful is when your healers are OOM and are relying on things like PoM, FoL, LHW, and single LBs to keep people alive. In this situation, FrR will extend the amount of time the raid can be kept alive by possibly up to 30 seconds or so. Otherwise it's just gonna increase overheal.
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Postby Wolvar » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:37 pm

Dude, it's gear dependant. Once you reach a certain gear level, it's not needed. It helps tremendously for undergeared healers who CAN'T keep the entire raid topped off for the whole fight.
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Postby Mex » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:29 pm

Wolvar wrote:Dude, it's gear dependant. Once you reach a certain gear level, it's not needed. It helps tremendously for undergeared healers who CAN'T keep the entire raid topped off for the whole fight.


><

Please tell me this is a joke?

My entire contention is that sporadic damage reduction on aoe damage does not have an equal effect on healer efficiency, and you're trying to convince me that some healers don't have enough efficiency to do the fight?

That's like me complaining that falling interest rates are drastically reducing the returns on my investments, and you telling me that I'll need money if I want to buy food.

I _know_ that undergeared raids will struggle with this encounter. That is not news to me, nor is it really relevant in any way, shape or form to what I'm trying to communicate here.
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Postby majorwoo » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:14 am

We did our progression kill on 25 man with nothing more then pally aura. It would have been a one shot except I believe when there are 2 ice blocks very close to each other you can sort of step "up" on one, and be above the ice block your trying to be behind causing you to get hit by the deep breath. We lost 3 people (myself included) who were all clearly behind the ice block. (hurray for people not waiting for 3rd ice block before bunching up)

I've heard that this can also be caused by the ice block being on uneven ground, though I didn't test this. Our next kill was smooth.
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Postby Angella » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:36 am

So what is the max Frost resist? Thinking of making a FR set just because I have an extra 1kgold and it would be cool.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:03 pm

I was bored today and wanted to try today with frost resist set.

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Now... is it worth to waste 1k+ gold on a set to reduce damage taken by ~200 per tick? :|
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Postby Wolvar » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:47 pm

It should be a 300ish average per tick x 10 people. So yeah it's worth it if yer healers don't have the mana regen. Minus 3k DTPS is a lot less to heal. (Not to mention reduced ice block damage)
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:06 pm

What most people miss is that by using this kind of set for the DPS you are nerfing their damage and prolonging the fight. And if healers are using it, they are as well nerfing their own regen.



It's simply wrong. It's not the healers' fault if people can't move out of a big giant blizzard.
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Postby Wolvar » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:26 pm

It works. Try running it with some newly levelled 80 healers without anything much beyond heroic gear and you'll be a believer.

Our first few attempts at Sapph we went for the achievement even tho' we all had resist gear. Wiped tons to healers going OOM. Put on resist gear, one-shotted with the same people.
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Postby Gracerath » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:07 am

I've killed Sapphiron twice. Once wearing 417 resist while at 540 def, and once wearing my normal tanking gear + aura. While wearing the normal gear, I took a bit more frost damage and noticably less melee damage, to the tune of almost 1k less per hit average melee damage. (WWS expired or I'd post it :( ).

That said, the frost resist gear is incredibly easy to make even with the recent inclusion of frozen orbs and while I wouldn't wear it on this particular encounter, that doesn't mean there wont be more use for it in the future. Of course being able to farm my own saronite and eternal fires easily with engineering was a big help in keeping the costs down.
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