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[10] Sartharion 3 Drakes: Optimal Setup?

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[10] Sartharion 3 Drakes: Optimal Setup?

Postby kensanity » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:26 pm

Hi, as my friends and i progress further into the Wotlk content, I feel as if we can start taking serious attempts at 3 drake Sartharion [10] version.

On the attempts I've beendoing previously, we've had 2 tanks 3 healers, and I've been tanking drakes + whelps + elementals on my pally.

However, i'm runnin my priest for this new group and I feel having another tank instead of 3 healers would be maybe easier to control. (would also help with the disciple transitions later in the fight)

My setup is looking something like this

-Feral Druid (Sarth Tank)
-Prot Paladin (Drake +Elemental Tank)
-Frost DK (Whelp Tank, Disciple tank, misc add tank)
-Holy Priest (CoH/Guardian Spirit)
-Holy Paladin (what spec?!!!? DG or no?)

- Warlock
- Elemental Shaman
- Boomkin
- Rogue
- Shadow Priest

The DK i have in mind, is not geared enough to tank Sartharion imo, so until he gets more gear, I am opting to have my nearly 50k druid tank that.

1) One question i have is, should i have the holly pally forgo crit to spec Divine Guardian?

2)also, in terms of DPS, since i'm trying to make a new dedicated group to learn the encounter from scratch (ie 1 drake, then 2, then 3) together with. Ideally, what classes would I want to take, or is what i have listed good enough in terms of diversity and raid support?

3) Lastly, does my DK need to be specced Frost? or is there a hybrid build for that third tank that I can use to increase DPS? How do you other guys do it? bring 3 tanks or is one kinda like a hybrd spec?
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Postby Eroslight » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:55 am

Kick the rogue and get a mage. Your set up doesn't benefit at all by having one melee physical dps.

As for DG for the holy pally - it definitely helps having it but I'm not too sure what he'd give up to get it. if its nothing extreme - then I would.
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Postby Splug » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:27 am

Frost is not exclusively a tanking tree, and in fact unholy is arguably superior in terms of mitigation. The mitigation disparity is against the primary directive of balancing, and as such is being resolved in 3.0.8 via a much-needed reduction to bone shield's effect.

If you want to increase your deathknight's damage, the method for doing so isn't to have them change trees, but to move points around within their spec. Deathknights effectively lose 18-20 talent points to pick up mitigative skills, and getting those back to invest in damage talents is significant. You'd also lose about as much mitigation as a warrior tanking with titan's grip. I don't recommend making that sacrifice for a twilight zone run.

Now, there are hybrid specs that involve some odd combinations of early-tier talents just to optimize things in a strange way, and I'm experimenting with one of them. The next iteration of the build looks promising, but I won't be able to vouch for it until after Naxx this week. As far as you're concerned though - if he's going to run as frost, just make sure the points he has in threat-generation talents are spent as efficiently as possible.

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Postby Playdoh » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:35 am

For the Holy Paladin - DG or no.

From everything I have read, it would be a resounding no.

The retribution tree has alot of +crit talents in it. Holy Paladins are hugely based off of +crit.

Most Holy Paladins that are not in some sort of pvp build, are going to be skipping everything in the prot tree including kings.
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Postby Mex » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:23 pm

The holy = crit argument is no longer entirely valid, and is much more of a TBC mentality. At the moment, for holy paladins quite simply intellect > everything.

8% crit is a big loss, but it's nothing compared to the ability to stop the tank getting one-shot with DG. A 51/17/3 spec is highly viable for Sartharion.

The deciding factor in whether or not he picks up DG should be whether your Sarth tank can reliably survive breaths with guardian spirit and hand of sac alone. If this is not the case, then speccing DG is a no brainer, your attempts will be capped at around ~2 minutes without it. Your holy pally WILL lose some regen, but assuming that he's fully geared in the best gear available to him, and that your spriest stays alive for the entire fight, he shouldn't have mana problems. Getting that mage in instead of the rogue would also be great, AI is a big buff for holy :)

Regarding the DK's spec, there's no way he should be anything but unholy imo. Movement is such a critical part of that fight that unholy aura is the single biggest buff a raid can have. Bigger than bloodlust / replenishment / kings. This is less true once the boss is on farm, but while learning, 15% move speed > all.
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Postby kensanity » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:36 pm

Mex wrote:

Regarding the DK's spec, there's no way he should be anything but unholy imo. Movement is such a critical part of that fight that unholy aura is the single biggest buff a raid can have. Bigger than bloodlust / replenishment / kings. This is less true once the boss is on farm, but while learning, 15% move speed > all.


Thank you for this, I never played a DK before so I didn't really know what spec was "best" for tanking adds and was reaffirmed that some kind of hybrind unholy spec seems to be popular for these job duties.

That said, the 2 healer +3 tank setup seems to be more common than the 3 healer +2 tank setup? (with of course maybe hybrid heal classes like boomkins/dps shamans in the mix)

Discuss.
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Postby Daddytank » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:24 pm

keep the rogue regardless of what people say, dont underestimate the power of anes poison fan of knives. it WILL save you countless times
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Postby kensanity » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:59 pm

keep the rogue regardless of what people say, dont underestimate the power of anes poison fan of knives. it WILL save you countless times



Which is the sole reason i brought a rogue, for this very problem but i guess if you are taking serious attempts at the encounter being overwhelmed by enraged elementals should not be an issue? idk. I do feel that the rogue has little or no synergy with my group at all and wondering if i should run a little more melee heavy to support his dps role, idk. we'll see.
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Postby Diocaska » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:34 am

Daddytank wrote:keep the rogue regardless of what people say, dont underestimate the power of anes poison fan of knives. it WILL save you countless times


This.

In theory, you shouldn't get too many enraged. But while learning at the very least, a rogue was priceless.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:20 am

Optimal Setup:

Physical DPS-Heavy

Dk Tank (Sarth)
Unholy DK (Adds)
Prot Paladin/Warrior (Drakes)

Holy Paladin (Sarth Tank healer, beacon add tank)
Holy Priest (Raid Healer)
Resto Druid (Rolling Lifeblooms/Rejuvs, bomb Regrowths on Drake tank)

Titan's Grip Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Ret Paladin
Hunter (Wasp Pet)

This group has the most stability, the most control, and the highest DPS output for a 4-DPS setup. It has All Blessings, all buffs except for Arcane Intellect, a Heroism, Major and Minor Armor debuffs, Replenish, and every physical DPS stat utility buff.
An additional advantage of this set-up is self-sufficiency. With a Prot Paladin there are a total of 4 life-saver cooldowns in the raid to get the DK tank through breaths while Shadron and Vesperon are both up to suppliment the DK's already formidable arsenal.

This is the setup a kill would most easily be acheived with.




Caster DPS-heavy

Dk Tank (Sarth)
Unholy DK (Adds)
Prot Paladin (Drakes)

Holy Paladin (Sarth Tank healer, beacon add tank)
Resto Druid (Rolling Lifeblooms, bomb Regrowths on Drake tank, Wild Growth and Lifebloom raid on spare GCDs)

Shadow Priest
Elemental Shaman
Boomkin
Mage
Warlock

This group relies on a 5-DPS setup to burst through the DPS check of the 2nd drake promptly, and would blow heroism immediately on DPS shifting to Shadron. Be sure to group all the DPS into a group together, which will allow the shadow priest to periodically drop form and Prayer of Healing all the DPS up to full during the 2nd and 3rd drakes.
When you take the portal after Shadron's death, the Boomkin would tank the Shadron acolyte and the ele shaman and shadow priest heal as needed.
As soon as the last drake dies, one of the hybrids, most likely the boomkin, will switch to tank healing full time until the end of the encounter.
This setup has all the caster DPS utility, the 2 important blessings, all the major buffs, and heroism. The primary dissadvantage is the fewer number of life-saver cooldowns available to supplement the Sarth tank's arsenal, and lack of a way to remove Enrages from blazes.


good hunting.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:25 am

An important point is that the priest ability Divine Hymn DOES in fact work on tenebron's whelps.

Divine Hymn
20% of base mana
1.5 sec cast
6 min cooldown

You recite a Holy hymn, causing the closest 10 enemies within 15 yards to become incapacitated for 20 sec., and heals the closest 10 friendly targets within 15 yards for 348 every sec for 6 sec. Incapacitated enemies take 40% less damage while incapacitated and for 3 sec after the incapacitation ends. Damage caused may interrupt the effect on all incapacitated targets.
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Postby kensanity » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:54 pm

Joanadark wrote:Optimal Setup:

Physical DPS-Heavy

Dk Tank (Sarth)
Unholy DK (Adds)
Prot Paladin/Warrior (Drakes)

Holy Paladin (Sarth Tank healer, beacon add tank)
Holy Priest (Raid Healer)
Resto Druid (Rolling Lifeblooms/Rejuvs, bomb Regrowths on Drake tank)

Titan's Grip Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Ret Paladin
Hunter (Wasp Pet)

This group has the most stability, the most control, and the highest DPS output for a 4-DPS setup. It has All Blessings, all buffs except for Arcane Intellect, a Heroism, Major and Minor Armor debuffs, Replenish, and every physical DPS stat utility buff.
An additional advantage of this set-up is self-sufficiency. With a Prot Paladin there are a total of 4 life-saver cooldowns in the raid to get the DK tank through breaths while Shadron and Vesperon are both up to suppliment the DK's already formidable arsenal.

This is the setup a kill would most easily be acheived with.

.


In the case that i do go with 3/3/4 setup, how can i gauge how good my group's dps is doing? i.e. with 1 less dps, should i expect to be getting 2 maybe eve 3 sets of whelps to come out during tenebron's/shadron's transition? also, with this setup when is heroism recommended
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:14 pm

Your DPS benchmark should be to kill tenebron before the second set of whelps without using heroism.
Ideally, Tenebron should die slightly after shadron becomes active, but before he does the second set of whelps. You would then blow heroism and blow up shadron. The heroism is as much to help the healers as the DPS in this case.

If necessary, you could blow heroism on tenebron, as the primary DPS check of the encounter with this setup is not shadron, because the quantity of healing and number of cooldowns available make that section completely sustainable, but in not getting that second whelp spawn.
The problem with more than one whelp spawn is it slows you down and sucks away a significant quantity of healing. With only one whelp spawn, the DK tank should kill them all by himself roughly by the point where DPS is shifting to Shadron.
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Postby Porygon » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:59 am

Another thing you may not want to over look while trying to down the fight for the first time is Bloodlust. With only 1 ele sham you are left with 1 "serious" attempt per 10 mins? While the attempts without bloodlust still help you learn the basic mechanics of the fight, making room for another shaman will speed up the kill significantly, or at least it did in our case. But being a Holy Priest you dont leave much room for another shaman as we used shaman healer + ele sham.

On a sidenote, we used a 2, 2, 6 setup with a DPS DK picking up the 3rd drake and blowing CDs to drag him over to our Pally tank. The DK was tanking the acolytes with an ele sham keeping everyone alive in the portal. I feel like this setup gives you alot more freedom with selecting DPS.

Being the Paladin healer, I can say that speccing into Divine Guardian is extremely useful (we used a DK to tank), and the loss of crit from the rest spec is not a big deal if the paladin is gearing correctly. A funny note, the divine guardian buff (30% damage taken by the raid xferred to the pally) actually got bugged on me for the last 3-4 minutes of the fight before i noticed...just couldnt figure out where all that damage was coming from!!

Good luck with the fight, its about the only fun content in the game atm :).
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Postby unboundarea52 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:25 pm

We will be starting this sometime this week. Both myself and the Holy pally (I'm Ret) will be speccing into DG for this encounter. It adds yet another cooldown to help save the MT.

Honestly my DPS doesn't take that much of a hit from speccing into it and for at least learnig the encounter its worth it. Without 3 healers I would honestly reccomend against having a Ret pally along for the ride. Our DPS is heavily reliant on Seal of Blood (and whatever the alliance counterpart is) and without it we do lose a significant amount. With 2 healers I just don't see there being enough healing to make up for the 3k judgement damage every 8 seconds or so. With 3 healers I can reasonably see us using Blood for the majority of the fight.
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