[25] Sartharion +3. How to deal with the adds?

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[25] Sartharion +3. How to deal with the adds?

Postby Martie » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:16 pm

Our guild is currently attempting to run Sarth 25 with all drakes up.

We just finished our first set of runs (wipes), didn't succeed. We had some issues with keeping the tank alive, people learning to avoid the void zones and firewalls and initial positioning of drakes, but we worked those out.

Now, the paladin tank on the adds was getting overwhelmed, so I was called in as a secondary tank on the adds. One less dps, but our dps did good. We ran with 7 healers. (3 paladins, one shaman, one druid, two priests.)

It went reasonably well, but time and time again, one (or both) of us paladin tanks would get hit by a fire wall or void zone, and subsequently the other would get killed. (This generally happens after Tenebron and her whelps are dead, the fire elementals (often some enraged) kill us.)

Some of the times we wiped because the adds got to the healers, sometimes one addtank would die, the mobs swarm to the other tank, smash him to bits and then proceed to kill the raid.

I find it nigh-impossible to avoid firewalls well enough to prevent enrages and pick up the randomly spawning adds before they go and kill healers.

So what would be the best plan to deal with all this?
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Postby MrDuck » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:27 pm

Well we're only doing +2 yet, so i know the difference in adds damage is significant, anyways what i do is using a holy pally standing nexto to me using righteous fury, making sure adds dont go after some random healers but just for him,and he almost never gets hit,yet gets adds close to me with pretty high reliability.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:58 pm

For 25 we run with 6 healers, bear on MT, warrior on drakes and Two add tanks: Me + DK.

Both me and the DK do as much DPS as we can to the drakes, but add-control is more important than an extra DPS, so we go overboard and have two tanks.

Dodge the walls. Void zones are less of an issue, but you MUST dodge the fire walls. Practice it.
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Postby Jellypop » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:59 pm

For our kill (after 21 wipes) we used 7 healers, 2 Pallies, 2 Priest, 2 Shamans and a druid.

DK on Sarth, one prot pally on drake. I was on fire adds and a prot warrior helps on whelps as they tend to escape conseration fast.

pretty much dodge fire walls, make sure the adds aren't enraged, have one pally use RF, and pretty much be ready to taunt off a healer every cool down,

we aoe down the fire adds and whelps as soon as the warrior has the whelps under control (which pretty much means when i pull the whelps off him with conseration)

then another aoe down when the 3rd drake is up. then it's all about controlling adds /faceroll. warrior MT took over sarth after 3rd drake was down.

it's really important to have your hunters tranq shot any enraged fire elementals, and have a rogue with that poison on off hand, and a spare main hand with it too in bag, ready to pop both and un-enrage the adds if they get hit by a fire wall.


there's so many things going on in the fight that it's tough to be perfect, so it's very important to call it out to un-enrage the adds, else you get gibbled up fast with 10+
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Postby Promdates » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:49 pm

Warriors are slightly better on the adds, due to them being able to put Vigilance on the Sarth tank which refreshes their taunt. Hey can also charge/intervene on people to "close the gap" that we really can't do.

So we put our druid on the MT duty, Warrior/DK on adds, and myself on the drakes.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:05 pm

Promdates wrote:Warriors are slightly better on the adds, due to them being able to put Vigilance on the Sarth tank which refreshes their taunt. Hey can also charge/intervene on people to "close the gap" that we really can't do.

So we put our druid on the MT duty, Warrior/DK on adds, and myself on the drakes.

I wish.

People seem to think Consecrate is magic fairy dust for add-tanking, so I get the job.

Warriors have like a million different versions of Charge, eleventy-seven taunts and T-Clap.

WTB snooze-fest that is tanking drakes (which I occasionally get because our warrior face-plants). Of course... our warrior finds tanking drakes hard because he can't pump out the TPS required all that easily, especially on the second drake, where for me it's automatic.

We must enjoy doing things the hard way.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:31 pm

Well killed him today for the first time. Took us 5 Tries and 54 minutes after killing the trash.

So, i just tank all the adds, bear goes on the Drakes, Warrior MT with Sarth specc (3x/x/3x) for max hp stays on sarth.

I just pickup the adds, the most annoying part is having to run forward and backward to pickup adds who may be on MT(Sarth tank) Healers.

I save shield toss for that and i taunt a lot, taunt is basically on Cooldown.

I just stay in a flexible position, middle of the plattform, and consecrate all the time , i run back and forward with the adds to pick them up to make sure healers dont get hit more than 1-2 times.

When theres 5 seconds before a Flame Tsunami, i move into position and taunt whatever is on a healer.

Im at 40K HP+ buffed, after debuffs im at 28-9 K HP. A DK usually puts a anti magic zone up when the drakes are up, we call for a quick bombing round, and the DPS Switches back to the targets which are down fast as hell anyways.

Basically the fight is easy as hell if your people dont suck.
I recommend Punishing harsch minus dkp after the 2nd time you get hit by a flame tsunami or die in a Void zone.

Healers on the MT(Sarth tank) need to know when to use their cooldowns (Guardian angel, protective roar, anti magic zone etc) which preludes to the previous point that the fight is easy if people simply dont suck.

Its really all about coordination, make sure your healers know when to do what ( Power Word shield during a flamebreath cast, Guardian angel when acolytes are up )

And make sure the MT stops hitting sarth when he has the debuff. (twilight torment)
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Postby arilink » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:26 am

Our Line-Up: 3 Tanks, 8 Healers, 14 Dps

A few tips for add duty:
Global threat through Seal of Light and Judgement of Light helps alot.
Popping a healing potion and/or healthstone on whelp spawn as well.
Don't stand still: Moving consistently backwards (in circles) or sidesteps will prevent most adds from hitting your back or standing in a voidzone.
Don't let anyone snare/root the adds.
Get this DBM-Mod: Turn off every warning except Flame Waves and Twilight Whelps spawn.
Set the warning sound to something you can't miss ("Aoogah!" worked perfectly for me).
Make sure you use Consecration and Holy Shield on cooldown.
Bind Judgement, Taunt and Avenger's Shield to easy to reach hotkeys.
When Tenebron is dead call AoE on the adds as well as after Shadron died.
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Postby amh » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:19 am

Knaughty wrote:bear on MT, warrior on drakes and Two add tanks: Me + DK.


We do the same. The DK is generally handling elementals, I´m dealing with whelps and any leftovers.

Warrior takes the first two drakes.
I take the first two whelp-packs
DK tanks elementals.
I pick up the third drake and hold it till the second drake is down.
Warrior runs over and taunts third drake off me.

Optional: I cross my fingers, pop bubble-wall and taunt Sarth off the bear so he can innervate someone.

Once the second drake is dead you pretty much win.
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Re: [25] Sartharion +3. How to deal with the adds?

Postby Dem » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:31 am

Martie wrote:So what would be the best plan to deal with all this?


We use 4 tanks. DK on Sarth, Warrior on Drakes, Prot Pally and Bear on adds. Tried with a single tank but it wasn't working well. I'm currently pretty well geared at around 30k unbuffed health with Kel's axe.

DPS needs to be high so any dps dying from fire walls and void zones is unacceptable. Most of the raid have spell detail at 25% which seems to help (I don't so I can see my consecrate). We have a macro which names and shames those hit by these threats.

As an add tank I know what you mean about avoiding flame walls. It can be tricky but it's important that you do. I have a ranged dps marked who calls the walls - you need to move immediately they are seen. Forget moving backwards - I run for it and trust my healers. With 2 add tanks this is fine. Sometimes you have to run further than you otherwise would to drag the adds far enough into the safe zone.
Same goes for void zones - don't back out of them it's slow especially if you didn't see it early 'cos of all the mobs on you.

For add pickups. I have PoJ as the run speed can really help. Shield throw is handy. Taunt use is common but you have to be really careful not to taunt Sarth/Drakes which can really spoil your day (single taunt soon :-) If I'm close enough I judge or shield bash get near any others around and hammer em. Consecrate gets used to hold a lot of adds or drop on the raid/healers etc. when you can't be there all the time.
I normally start on the ranged dps, consecrate when the first drake comes in, pick a couple up then drop a consecrate on the portal a little while after eggs start hatching to get initial threat on the little dragons. The 2nd add tank hangs around the ranged dps.
Healers generate a lot of threat and you need to pick adds off them pretty quickly.
After each drake goes down we clean up the adds with aoe.
If it feels a bit hairy, pop bubble wall otherwise save your cd for one of the other tanks.

Another tip, be very careful about targeting mobs near the portal - it's pretty easy to click on it and find yourself in another place...

Think someone mentioned no roots, snares etc. No freeze ups either please Mages and no aoe attacks with knockback effects either.

Ideally you shouldn't see a second wave of mini-drakes. We choose to use heroism on the first drake when the tank has good aggro.

Without a Ret Pally, I'd really like to be judging light on Sarth/Drakes as the healing it puts out often has me level with the lowest ranked healer. It's all a bit too hectic at the moment though.

We are quite threat capped with the current warr tank on the drakes at the moment and might switch roles at some point as I can get instant high threat.

Anyway, We wiped for 3 hours, 40 attempts, with the best attempt having 2 of the 3 drakes down. At this point it's almost over, but we just couldn't clean up and stay in shape to finish it. Decided to take Shadron out and do it with just 2 this week - 1 shotted it with everyone alive. The step up in difficulty is pretty massive. Expect it to go down with 3 next week.
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Re: [25] Sartharion +3. How to deal with the adds?

Postby amh » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:49 am

Dem wrote: Taunt use is common but you have to be really careful not to taunt Sarth/Drakes which can really spoil your day


This was an issue to start with, but we ended up simply putting all tanks in group 1. That way, anything below group1 (horizontal groups using the addon Grid) with aggro gets a taunt
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Postby Mithos » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:46 am

Oops, double post, someone delete plix:>
Last edited by Mithos on Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mithos » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:46 am

We have massive HP warrior on boss, random tank on drakes and me on adds. The first round of whelps always spawns +/- 5 seconds from when the next lava wall after the message that the eggs are being hatched (if that made sense), you can just camp it (if fire wall, camp it via consecration). Sometimes the fire adds are overwhelming yeah, just have to be quick on picking them up. We aoe all adds after tenebron dies, between moving to shadron, then the same again after he dies. Ideally you should only get 1 wave of whelps.

You have to try as hard as you can to stop them from enraging, and HAVE to avoid fire walls at all costs. A single, non enraged add is not very harmful to say a healer for a few seconds if you have to run away from a firewall and for some reason have nothing left to get the add, just don't freak out and panic :).
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Postby Treck » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:23 am

I love this fight, as the add tank.
Feels so rewarding, since every time its done you can finally breath out.
Since the fight from first drake --> 3rd drake dead is a nightmare.
Constantly running around (void zones are a non issue), taunt on CD 24/7 dpsers feeling to boost their dps with some aoe every now and then making new adds go for them since ive had zero chance to make aggro on them since they keep spawning. I call for aoe every now and then, aswell as every time a dragon dies, they shuold turn around and help.
Also the randomness in that fight, sometimes you stand there wacking your shield on one single fire add looking around for more but there is none, then suddenly BAM and 5 new spawn shortly, you run around picking them up and when your done, 5 more spawns all over the area. Its hard, and theres always some healer whining on vent saying they have an add on them for half a sec.
Frustrating few minutes and its always your "fault" if someone who have an add on them dies, I just tell them to actually try doing it before commenting, i seriously doubt there is anything in this game that is harder atm.
Doing this for 4 weeks now, finally starting on 10man 3D.
Wich is a complete joke in terms of addtanking in comparison.
Since you solo the fire mobs with 26k hp, dragons have 60k or so so aoe help is nice there, if your dps can spare it (atleast after 1st drake, having whelps and all), have soloed them a few times but takes some unnessesary damage making healers have a problem with mana later on in the fight.
And as someone else said, everyone else seems to think Paladins are gods on that duty (well my guild does, since it simply doesnt work with any other tank in the guild, altho that doesnt have anything to do with their class), i see consecration the best tool for the whelps, since you know where they spawn and when, but for the rest of the fight, all classes are very much able to do it just as good imo. "Bring the player, not the class" actually works very well in 25manns (10mans it failed a bit)
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Postby Dem » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:16 am

You can't avoid enraged adds all the time though. Sometimes they spawn right in front of a flame wall.

Something else I was wondering about. Add spawns are weird. Sometimes when the first drake comes in there are 5 up, sometimes none. I wonder whether it's completely random or if something affects it.
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