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Tanks set-up for Sartharion and 3 drakes and other questions

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Tanks set-up for Sartharion and 3 drakes and other questions

Postby nicolax » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:06 am

For info : i have almost every best in-slot gear, just missing maexxna/gluth belt and sartharion’s chest. 31900+ hp unbuffed, 53% avoidance, 40-41k hp buffed.
Our druid has 51k hp buffed with his stam set, so he is first choice to tank sarth when he is here. Our dk could still use some upgrades, 35-36k buffed. Our warriors have 3-4k less hp buffed than me for now. I didn’t include the power of vesperon debuff that decrease stam by 25%

We are currently working on that fight, i am the raid leader and i am wondering several things :

- is it possible to use a warrior or paladin to main tank sartharion from the start ? the reason being that our dk and druid tank are not active enough to be there at every try.

- Is it possible to have a single warrior tanking whelps/elementals if he is not the best choice for sarth among the available tanks ?

- Can we use our death knight already to tank sartharion ? i fear he is not geared enough yet. (his name is blakkadder). What is the minimum amount of hp buffed, with or without power of vesperon active, to tank sarth.

- I haven’t had the time to check our wws from yesterday carefully yet because i’m at work, but sartharion’s super fire breath hitting for 75k unmitigated, what amount of damage would a tank resist with 130 fire resistance ? (totem or aura). It would help me calculate the damage that needs to be mitigated after that to survive that breath with the cooldowns available

- How do your holy paladins manage to use their cooldowns on the tank ? Blessing of Sacrifice last 12 seconds, and divine guardian mitigates 30% damage for everyone. It seems hard, even with sartharion as your focus and cast bar enabled, and a pre-determined order of cooldowns to be able to react during the 2 seconds fire breath cast and use those 2 abilities.
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Postby hoho » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:34 am

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... &n=Dractor <- on whelps/elementals
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... rasselsudd <- on Sartharion for most of the fight
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... Cartberger and http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... Tinkerbeef on drakes.

I'm not sure what kinds of cooldowns the DK used but from WWS I saw that biggest hit he got was ~19.5k. IIRC raid-buffed all tanks were around 35-38k hp without debuffs. Flame breath seemed to hit tanks for up to 21k, max melee swing recorded was 22.7k:
http://wowwebstats.com/ld2scfu5uikwq?s= ... +breath%22
http://wowwebstats.com/ld2scfu5uikwq?s= ... 70bc001579

We have only had two nights on him, at one night we had a druid tanking the small adds but it was quite bad because he has much bigger problems generating aoe threat while having to move almost constantly. I could usually just drop consecrate and it worked more or less. We haven't tried having warrior or DK tanking the small ones but I think they should work quite OK too, especially DK as he can put D&D down even under flame wave.

Also, we had rogues put enrage-removing poison on one of their weapons. When lots of elementals were enraged then fan of knives removed it from most of them.
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Postby Kynes » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:38 am

We've been using a warrior for MT, myself (paladin) for adds and a 2nd warrior for drakes. It has worked pretty well, the only "issue" is we need a cooldowns rotation on the main tank for when both 2nd and 3rd drakes are down. But if I'm not mistaken, every tank needs that no matter the class.

Anyway, yeah. Do whatever works cause honestly, it's an exectution fight more than a tank fight.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:25 am

we used a warrior mt for the first few tries, but he often ended up being one hitted by S after we got Tenebron down. we equipped one of our DK in the next ID and were successful within a handful of tries.

-> DK tanks are superior here, because of their greater number of shield wall-like abilities.

I don't believe a single warrior is able to do the elementals and whelps all alone.

your deathknight's gear sucks. he looks more like an alt compared to your other tanks. he might be able to tank S, but it will be very stressfull for everyone and another tank should grab S as soon as Shadron+Disciple are down.

FR doesn't really help you here. you can't reach the relevant value of FR without gimping your other stats, since FR is nowhere to be found in WotLK except for green items.
placing a FR totem surely helps, but it the chance that your MT will have resists on the breath is kind of low. the breath has to be handled, no matter how. if you are relying on approx 130 FR your tank will be grilled quite often.

we tried to use damage reducing abilities like HoS or DG at the beginning, too. this led to other problems like other tanks dying or missing dps (hunter buffing the pet version of HoS).. and our warrior MT ended up dead, anyway.
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Postby nicolax » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:18 am

another question that just popped :

- how do damage reductions work ?

for example you have a tank with effulgent skyflare diamond (-2% spell damage) + -6% spell damage from guarded by the light + -3% from vigilance + -3% from sanctuary + -3% from grace (priest disc tree) = -15 % damage.

the super fire breath is 75k so how do i calculate the approximately incoming damage with that damage reduction AND divine protection ?

75*0.85(1-0.15) damage reduction*0.5 divine protection?

or

75*0.35 (100 - 15% damage reduction - 50% divine protection) ?
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Postby Belloc » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:53 am

nicolax wrote:another question that just popped :

- how do damage reductions work ?

for example you have a tank with effulgent skyflare diamond (-2% spell damage) + -6% spell damage from guarded by the light + -3% from vigilance + -3% from sanctuary + -3% from grace (priest disc tree) = -15 % damage.

the super fire breath is 75k so how do i calculate the approximately incoming damage with that damage reduction AND divine protection ?

75*0.85(1-0.15) damage reduction*0.5 divine protection?

or

75*0.35 (100 - 15% damage reduction - 50% divine protection) ?

Vigilance and Sanctuary don't stack.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:05 am

grace also doesn't stack with BoS.
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Postby knaughty » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:07 pm

Assuming 25-man:

• Warrior can't tank Sarth (for disciple phase). Neither can a pally. Bear or DK only.
• Anyone can tank drakes.
• DK is awesome for adds, pally isn't bad. We use one of each for add-tanking during Drake phase and only take 6 healers.
• Plate DPS can tank disciples, and ele-shaman/boomkin can heal it.

Sarth Duty
• 50k buffed is enough health, that's what our bear has had for our two kills.

• Bear must learn how to clear the debuff during breath cast.

CDs that work include:
• Guardian Spirit
• Hand of Sacrifice (HoS person better have a bubble up)
• Bearwall (forget the real name). Bearwall may need barkskin as well.

We typically need a chain of about 5 CDs.

We find GS somewhat unreliable. Sometimes the bear dies with it up if he gets a big breath.
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Postby kram » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:34 pm

Knaughty wrote:Assuming 25-man:
• Warrior can't tank Sarth (for disciple phase). Neither can a pally. Bear or DK only.


A warrior can tank Sartharion25 from start to finish without a problem. Usually we go through a Shield Wall & DG+HoSac combo, and maybe a Guardian Spirit(if dps is slow or we are unlucky).
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Postby knaughty » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:56 am

kram wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Assuming 25-man:
• Warrior can't tank Sarth (for disciple phase). Neither can a pally. Bear or DK only.


A warrior can tank Sartharion25 from start to finish without a problem. Usually we go through a Shield Wall & DG+HoSac combo, and maybe a Guardian Spirit(if dps is slow or we are unlucky).


Our warriors were getting one-shot though HoSac and we switched to bear tank and haven't looked back. I'm surprised it's working for you, the warriors have pretty decent gear. We could try again, as they've gear up more since, I suppose.

We've also had up to 4 or 5 disciples, not 2 or 3.

Then again, we've only killed sarth+3 25-man twice.
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Postby kram » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:16 pm

We dont bother w/ a HoSac w/o a DG (we usually have one holy paladin that specs into prot). Depending on how you handle Acolytes I could see you requiring more cooldowns.

For awhile while we were trying to get our first kill we were having a dps DK (we have no tanking druids or dks >.<) taunt and blow a CD then have the tank taunt back ontop of going through HoSac and 2-3 GS.
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Postby LPskater4886 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:23 am

i would also reccomend bear tank on sarth makes it easier everyone can do it, they do it easiest.

also a warrior can tank adds just fine if they know how to play, shockwave whelps and tclap and heroic throw, taunt, intervene, charge, etc on elementals warriors are actually quite good, as with sarth dk/pally is better on adds but warriors work if they are competant.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

kram wrote:We dont bother w/ a HoSac w/o a DG (we usually have one holy paladin that specs into prot). Depending on how you handle Acolytes I could see you requiring more cooldowns.


The advantage of a bear is that you only need one CD on them when Disciple pops up. 30% from HoSac is enough. So one Holy-PvP-prot-thingy paladin like you take can do two instead of one. HoSac... wait 12 secs... DG...

Since you only need one CD, you can leave the Disciple alive untill you kill the 2nd drake, then take the portal, kill both, pop out and kill the 3rd drake.

Congrats if you've done it with a warrior tanking Sarth, but I do kind of think you're doing it the "even harder" way :)

=edit=

Has been pointed out to me that using two healers and no holy pally is also "harder way". A lot of what you'll take to Sarth+3[10] is determined by the player, rather than the class. We took holy priest over holy pally because priest had a mike, pally didn't. That was a bigger difference than class. Oh and for Fort, since no SP, replenishment by Ret.

Grats design team?
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Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:25 pm

Oh, and this: [10]Sarth+3 kill video might be helpful.
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Postby Chunes » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:02 am

Knaughty wrote:• Bear must learn how to clear the debuff during breath cast.


how is this done again? I've forgotten the mechanics of that debuff.

*edit*
nm, i figured out where i saw it posted originally.
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