Remove Advertisements

[10] Sartharion with 3 drakes

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, guillex

Postby Ashmadai » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:39 pm

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions Splug. I'll definitely download the video later when I'm at home. Unfortunately they block all the good stuff at work. :D
Image
Ashmadai
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:50 pm

Postby Cakes » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:04 pm

We put a major dent in this fight last night on our first full night of attempts (two half nights previously). Our best attempt was Tenebron dead, Shadron dead, Vesp at 2%. This would normally be an easy kill, but the MT had died with about 20% left on Shadron, so I managed to taunt Sarth and keep the other two drakes on me while the MT was battle rezzed. Our healers were running on fumes at this point, so it was really just a prolonged wipe, but we're confident we can get it down this reset.

Our group comp was:

Prot Pally (Drake Tank)
DK (blaze/whelp/disciple tank)
Warrior (Sarth tank)
Boomkin
Ele Shaman
Spriest
Mage
Aff Lock
Holy Pally
Resto Druid

Originally we started with me on drakes, whelps, and blazes, but the chance for me to hose the entire raid was a lot higher, as it's extremely difficult to juggle all those things while avoiding void zones, flame waves, and managing cooldowns so your healers stay alive. We replaced an Spriest with the DK offtank, and the fight suddenly became so much easier.

Also, we've noticed that this fight is less about amazing dps and more about control. Our best attempts of the night were done completely without heroism due to it being down from the previous attempt. If you can control the adds, your dps can manage not to die, and your tanks can handle their multitude of assignments, the fight is manageable.
Cakes
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:14 pm

Postby Gaffer » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:41 am

Cakes wrote:Our group comp was:

Prot Pally (Drake Tank)
DK (blaze/whelp/disciple tank)
Warrior (Sarth tank)
Boomkin
Ele Shaman
Spriest
Mage
Aff Lock
Holy Pally
Resto Druid


How do you deal with breaths during Twilight Torment with Shadron up with a Warrior tank? I don't think I've seen a group comp that didn't involve either a DK tank on Sartharion (which really trivializes dealing with the breaths) or a Feral Druid with at least one Holy Priest and One Holy Paladin (and generally a second holy priest or hunter with Gorilla pet). I'd strongly recommend shifting your DK tank to Sartharion. If you're worried about whelp pickup, having your warrior tank Sartharion until after whelps and then swapping roles also works (it's what we did with a feral druid instead).

Also, when you're MT died is not at the free win point. In fact, the most dangerous part of the encounter is the period when both Shadron and Vesperon are alive because you're dealing with -25% Health, +100% fire damage, and then random Twilight Torments which increase fire damage taken by another 75% (the tooltip was incorrect last I did this, I'm not sure if they've corrected it). Like you said, the fight is definitely more about controlling the adds than DPS, but even more important than add control is the management of breaths that will one-shot a tank.
Gaffer
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:39 am

Postby Belloc » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:34 am

Gaffer wrote:
Cakes wrote:Our group comp was:

Prot Pally (Drake Tank)
DK (blaze/whelp/disciple tank)
Warrior (Sarth tank)
Boomkin
Ele Shaman
Spriest
Mage
Aff Lock
Holy Pally
Resto Druid


How do you deal with breaths during Twilight Torment with Shadron up with a Warrior tank? I don't think I've seen a group comp that didn't involve either a DK tank on Sartharion (which really trivializes dealing with the breaths) or a Feral Druid with at least one Holy Priest and One Holy Paladin (and generally a second holy priest or hunter with Gorilla pet). I'd strongly recommend shifting your DK tank to Sartharion. If you're worried about whelp pickup, having your warrior tank Sartharion until after whelps and then swapping roles also works (it's what we did with a feral druid instead).

Also, when you're MT died is not at the free win point. In fact, the most dangerous part of the encounter is the period when both Shadron and Vesperon are alive because you're dealing with -25% Health, +100% fire damage, and then random Twilight Torments which increase fire damage taken by another 75% (the tooltip was incorrect last I did this, I'm not sure if they've corrected it). Like you said, the fight is definitely more about controlling the adds than DPS, but even more important than add control is the management of breaths that will one-shot a tank.

If Twilight Torment is the debuff applied by Vesperon's add, then it can be removed.

The way to do it is to have your tank use one of his instant abilities (not autoattack) at the very start of the flame breath. He'll take a damage reflection about a second after he does his ability, which will remove the debuff. The flame wave will land immediately after.

Your tank will have taken some damage, but it will be much less than an extra 75% from the debuff.
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Postby Cakes » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:05 pm

Gaffer wrote:How do you deal with breaths during Twilight Torment with Shadron up with a Warrior tank? I don't think I've seen a group comp that didn't involve either a DK tank on Sartharion (which really trivializes dealing with the breaths) or a Feral Druid with at least one Holy Priest and One Holy Paladin (and generally a second holy priest or hunter with Gorilla pet). I'd strongly recommend shifting your DK tank to Sartharion. If you're worried about whelp pickup, having your warrior tank Sartharion until after whelps and then swapping roles also works (it's what we did with a feral druid instead).


The few times that we got to the comfortable part of the fight was due to what Belloc mentioned below, or through luck. Near the end of the night, we were consistently wiping with Shadron and Vesp up with the first portal spawn. We ended up getting it tonight with no change to group comp other than swapping the warrior MT with a feral druid, whose health pretty much trivializes tanking Sarth.

Our first good attempt of the night we took both the portals down on Vesp, which would have been fine, but I was slacking and wasn't watching for Blazes, which raped one of my healers up top and lead to a wipe. I think it's optimal to take the portal only after Vesp is dead, but it seems doable either way.

Also, when you're MT died is not at the free win point. In fact, the most dangerous part of the encounter is the period when both Shadron and Vesperon are alive because you're dealing with -25% Health, +100% fire damage, and then random Twilight Torments which increase fire damage taken by another 75% (the tooltip was incorrect last I did this, I'm not sure if they've corrected it). Like you said, the fight is definitely more about controlling the adds than DPS, but even more important than add control is the management of breaths that will one-shot a tank.


We had Shadron down and Vesp at 2% when we wiped, so it was at the easy point of the fight. If our MT hadn't eaten a breath without a cooldown up, it would have been a kill.
Cakes
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:14 pm

Postby knaughty » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:52 pm

OMG.. just got it, finally, 10-man.

Hardest. Fight. Evar. Worse than pre-nerf M'uru, I think (unsure, never got it, only phase one).

I tanked Adds, then 3rd drake after prot warrior died, warrior got BR'd and picked up adds, once last drake died I switched to Sarth so bear could pop an enervate on OOM healer, then bear did Kitty DPS to 13%, swapped back, warrior and I grabbed adds for 2nd Bloodlust from 13% to dead.

Three tanks, two healers.
Plate DPS tanked Disciples with elemental shaman healing.

Bear on Sarth. CD rotation was Guardian Spirit, Hand of Sac twice (ret, then me), then bear CDs/Trinkets.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby majiben » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:46 pm

You've beat the game, now what? :-p
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:52 am

Majiben wrote:You've beat the game, now what? :-p


Finish my tanking gear (3 pieces to go).

Collect ret gear.

Get ~15 more drakes from +3 (9 from the people who got the kill, + half-dozen who helped or were at previous learning nights).

Get 50th mini-pet. Stuck on 49.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Cakes » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:03 am

Knaughty wrote:Hardest. Fight. Evar. Worse than pre-nerf M'uru, I think (unsure, never got it, only phase one).



I kinda disagree, unless you're two tanking the fight and you're the tank on Drakes/Adds. A tank that can manage all the adds and drakes without getting the raid breathed on or having adds roll your healers is a god among men, or a Deathknight.

That's neither here nor there, however, and grats are in order. Did you get the drake?
Cakes
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:14 pm

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:22 am

A tank that can manage all the adds and drakes without getting the raid breathed on or having adds roll your healers is a god among men, or a Deathknight.



no-cooldown pestilence next patch is gonna be overpowered.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:10 pm

Cakes wrote:That's neither here nor there, however, and grats are in order. Did you get the drake?

The raid collectively decided to give the drake to the mage raid-leader who put the 12 hours of runs together, frapsed every attempt, and acted as coach. Will be /roll from now on.
Cakes wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Hardest. Fight. Evar. Worse than pre-nerf M'uru, I think (unsure, never got it, only phase one).

I kinda disagree, unless you're two tanking the fight and you're the tank on Drakes/Adds. A tank that can manage all the adds and drakes without getting the raid breathed on or having adds roll your healers is a god among men, or a Deathknight.

By "pre-nerf" M'uru I meant 2.4.last-patch, not 2.4.0 or whatever it was when Sunwell was introduced. IE: After the pushback nerf, but before lol-3.0. I never even saw the pushback version of M'uru.

I tried drakes + adds for S+2 one time. Pretty sure that target-able Consecrate would have been enough to get it over the line. Even without, JoL threat "feature" was enough to round most of them up, RD / AS grabbed most of the stragglers.

Couldn't quite manage it, however. Move around a ton to pick up? You'll breath raid. Stand still? You can't get them all, and it doesn't take much to kill a priest.

Having tanked all three bits of S+2[25] and (in the kill attempt, no less) all three bits of S+3[10], I would rate tanking just adds/whelps as the hardest tanking job.

Doing +3 with only two healers was sketchy. We had to swap the bear out of Sarth-MT-duty once all three drakes were down so he could enervate. Both healers were running on fumes for last 20-30% of 3rd drake. Was looking like we might wipe.

Actually, the kill had three different points we nearly wiped:
• 2nd drake down, DPS + ele-shaman-healing in phase-realm killing Disciples. Drake-tank and MT taking a lot of damage. Chain-spawns of fire elementals, all over the platform, who take their sweet time walking over and go through fire walls on the way. I pickup fine, but have 6-8 elementals on me, half of them enraged, with no DPS to kill them. I'm yelling for "AE spawns!" and the the raid leader points out "We're in Disciple realm". Chained avoidance trinket + bubblewall, and eked through, but healer mana took a hammering.
• Raid pops out. Things stabilise, DPS starts on 3rd drake. Drake tank dies. I pickup, put it in position, warrior gets a BR and takes over on spawn tanking.
• 3rd drake at ~30%. Both healers OOM...

Anyway, we got 3rd drake dead, I picked up Sarth, warrior covered adds, bear enervated priest and switched to kitty-DPS till 13%, then took over MT duty.

Bloodlust at 13%, warrior and I collected adds. Nerd-screams.

Raid-leader is working on a video, I'll post it once it's up.

Sorry to blather on, but ZOMG - very exiting.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Splug » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:54 pm

Cakes wrote:I kinda disagree, unless you're two tanking the fight and you're the tank on Drakes/Adds. A tank that can manage all the adds and drakes without getting the raid breathed on or having adds roll your healers is a god among men, or a Deathknight.
Those are not necesarily mutually exclusive titles, and considering current game balance, are possibly redundant!

But I'm with Cakes on this one. By the second or third clear, it becomes very obvious that this is nowhere close to the difficulty we saw from M'uru. According to your post, your group had twelve hours of learning time invested. I don't know how much time you put into the M'uru encounter, but I am quite certain we put in a lot more than twelve hours to bring him down. We probably put in more than twelve hours per week, especially if you're counting the relatively short trash reclear.

-Splug
Last edited by Splug on Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am

Postby Cakes » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:54 pm

Knaughty wrote:The raid collectively decided to give the drake to the mage raid-leader who put the 12 hours of runs together, frapsed every attempt, and acted as coach. Will be /roll from now on.


Heh. I was in approximately the same role as your mage, as the raid leader and "strategizer" of the raid group, but when I called for /roll on the drake and won it, my raid gave me endless shit about 'councilor corruption.' Ungrateful heathens! :P

Knaughty wrote:By "pre-nerf" M'uru I meant 2.4.last-patch, not 2.4.0 or whatever it was when Sunwell was introduced. IE: After the pushback nerf, but before lol-3.0. I never even saw the pushback version of M'uru.


Yeah, I think we only had him down a few weeks before you (if I remember my post history correctly), but my emphasis was more towards how I think Sarth10 + 3 is hard for the tanks, depending on assignment, and the healers. The dps have the cushy job of keeping themselves alive, which isn't particularly hard after all the whelps are dead. M'uru, on the other hand, was rough for nearly everyone in the raid until everyone had sufficient practice handling the minutia of the fight. Just my 2 cents.

Knaughty wrote:<snip fight details>


Sounds about how our first kill went. Our elemental shaman, who normally is quite stable, played horribly and died 3 times WITHOUT using an anhk. I also had to taunt, shield wall, and let the bear innervate someone and let the healers regen a bit. I was even watching my LoH timer like a hawk to give the healers just a bit more mana.
Cakes
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:14 pm

Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:00 pm

Splug wrote:But I'm with Cakes on this one. By the second or third clear, it becomes very obvious that this is nowhere close to the difficulty we saw from M'uru. According to your post, your group had twelve hours of learning time invested. I don't know how much time you put into the M'uru encounter, but I am quite certain we put in a lot more than twelve hours to bring him down. We probably put in more than twelve hours per week, especially if you're counting the relatively short trash reclear.

True. We spent far more than 12 hours wiping on M'uru. 8-12 hours a week, for about a month, then we hit patch 3.0 and got our progression in 2 tries. The first try wipe was due to surpise at how fast P1 went and mis-timing transition to P2 horrifically badly.

So you're right, M'uru was harder.

Though part of the reason that we can do 10-man Sarth3D in 12 hours is because we're using the best 10-15 people in a 35-40 person Sunwell guild. M'uru you had 25 people who had to perform. Sarth-10, you only need 10, and you can be rather brutal about who you take.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Splug » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:07 pm

That's also a factor, true. It also means you have fewer people to have make a mistake, even assuming equal skill level (and that single errors are roughly fatal in both encounters). In the end though, those factors just contribute to the encounter being mastered faster, and in my mind that means it is easier.

-Splug
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am

PreviousNext

Return to T7: Naxx / Maly / Sarth / Archavon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest