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Malygos and Divine Guardian

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Malygos and Divine Guardian

Postby Commonmind » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:04 am

I've heard arguments for and against using DG to help mitigate raid-wide damage during Malygos. I only spec'd into it once, and found I didn't use it frequently enough to warrant the cost.

I know DG is obviously not a necessity, but how viable is it in helping win the raid?
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Postby kensanity » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:48 pm

Given the lack of use for improved hammer of justice, using divine guatdian once in the fight (whether it be vortex or phase 2) already makes it a better talent point allocstion. There just aren't many better options. I'm not saying that it is ground breaking because it definitely isn't but prper use of it during one of those tough spots greatly lessens the strain on healers and in bad spots can help a raid repace itself.
For holy pallies tho, I don't believe in specing into the prot tree (definitely) not that deep just for dg. Too many ret talents lost at that expense. Anyway that's my thoughts
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Postby Joanadark » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:46 am

For my guild's server first kill of Malygos, we had the two ret paladins and one holy paladin in the raid spec DG, which helped a great deal to ease the challenge of facing intense raid damage with the whole raid wearing almost all level 70 gear except for the drops from the single naxx clear the night before.

Consider this, 3 DGs in the raid is enough to 35% raid shield wall through every single Vortex and every single Deep Breath that occurs in the encounter. Thats not a negligible difference.
Use the tools available to you. Theres no reason not to DG through a vortex as a prot paladin tank.
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Postby Morendin » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:08 pm

Joanadark wrote:For my guild's server first kill of Malygos, we had the two ret paladins and one holy paladin in the raid spec DG, which helped a great deal to ease the challenge of facing intense raid damage with the whole raid wearing almost all level 70 gear except for the drops from the single naxx clear the night before.

Consider this, 3 DGs in the raid is enough to 35% raid shield wall through every single Vortex and every single Deep Breath that occurs in the encounter. Thats not a negligible difference.
Use the tools available to you. Theres no reason not to DG through a vortex as a prot paladin tank.


unfortunately....there is a reason: Forbearance.

I *love* the idea behind DG, but using it prevents us from shield walling for 2 minutes, soon to be *3*.
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Postby kensanity » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:56 pm

Morendin wrote:
Joanadark wrote:For my guild's server first kill of Malygos, we had the two ret paladins and one holy paladin in the raid spec DG, which helped a great deal to ease the challenge of facing intense raid damage with the whole raid wearing almost all level 70 gear except for the drops from the single naxx clear the night before.

Consider this, 3 DGs in the raid is enough to 35% raid shield wall through every single Vortex and every single Deep Breath that occurs in the encounter. Thats not a negligible difference.
Use the tools available to you. Theres no reason not to DG through a vortex as a prot paladin tank.


unfortunately....there is a reason: Forbearance.

I *love* the idea behind DG, but using it prevents us from shield walling for 2 minutes, soon to
be *3*.


This. However assuming that u need your paladins to alter their specs so much tells me that either u don't have druids/priests able to sustain the raid through vortex or u just aren't doing enough dps and your healers are going oom. Personally, if u need divine guardian specced, and u have three paladins for it, u won't be having issues with the breath, I mean like above poster said, its shield wall for your raid for the greater duration of phase 1 even when another pally casts it, the tank srill benefits from it. What I'm saying is, yeah tank should spec it if he wants to help. Its situational but malygos is a prime opportunity and other talent allocations are useless anyway. However, having healers and dps revamp their specs just to be able to provide this ability once in a while? Eh idk about that. As holy I can't see giving up so many ret talents just for this and as ret, I too don't know what I'd be willing to cut from the ret tree
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Postby majiben » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:44 pm

If you aren't doing enough dps mag's erage will take care of it for you.
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Postby kensanity » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:40 am

[quote="Majiben"]If you aren't doing enough dps mag's erage will take care of it for you.[/quot
e]

My point exsactly. Whjich is why only prot paladins should bother specing into the talent for th encounter. It gimps ret and holy too much for it be viable tools for them imo
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Postby majiben » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:28 am

kensanity wrote:This. However assuming that u need your paladins to alter their specs so much tells me that either u don't have druids/priests able to sustain the raid through vortex or u just aren't doing enough dps and your healers are going oom
This ipmlies that running healers oom is a legitimate danger. The only reason to have multiple paladins spec DG is that you don't have enough HPS for the group due to a lack of priest and druids. I wouldn't be suprised to see the vortex damage scaled back when the CD on CoH and WG is implemented.

I couldn't see making ret paladins go get DG but I could see holy paladins getting it. Yes they lose crit but keeping all group members alive is very important to beating him on a progression kill.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:18 am

However assuming that u need your paladins to alter their specs so much tells me that either u don't have druids/priests able to sustain the raid through vortex or u just aren't doing enough dps and your healers are going oom.


clearly making use of the tools available to you in order to beat the encounter expediently is a crutch?
Not everyone waits until they outgear an encounter before beating it. Our server first titles say otherwise.

I couldn't see making ret paladins go get DG but I could see holy paladins getting it. Yes they lose crit but keeping all group members alive is very important to beating him on a progression kill.


You forget that I am a ret paladin. The ONLY thing that a ret paladin loses by going to get DG is Sheath of Light, which is maybe a couple hundred DPS worth of loss for me at that time at most.
The DPS reduction is negligible compared to the survivability granted the raid.

This ipmlies that running healers oom is a legitimate danger. The only reason to have multiple paladins spec DG is that you don't have enough HPS for the group due to a lack of priest and druids.


Flip it around. Youre implying that meeting the DPS check is actually a serious problem, when the encounter was barely enrage sensitive wearing level 70 gear and the only way to hit it was through doing a terrible job stacking sparks or through people dying in phase 3 because they cant master drake control, neither of which is helped by a couple hundred higher DPS by your ret paladins in phase 1.
When we did it, however, almost all of the raid was running around with 13k hp. There was no reason NOT to have our paladins spec and use DG.

As for Holy, the ret subspecialization is nice when you are undergeared, but by the time you are in naxx 25 gear you are capable of spamming nothing but holy light 100% of the time indefinately if you arent terrible at itemizing yourself, at which point DG becomes THE holy raid spec. Even before reaching the point of optimum efficiency its kind of a toss up between the two specs.
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Postby kensanity » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:35 am

Joanadark wrote:
clearly making use of the tools available to you in order to beat the encounter expediently is a crutch?
Not everyone waits until they outgear an encounter before beating it. Our server first titles say otherwise.


Is it not? I mean, we aren't talking about week 1 title searching anymore. we are talking about killing a boss which is considered the next step after Naxxramas and as most sources say, having gear from nax is recommended in order to attempt malygos. If u are jumpin in there with Sunwell epics and 13k life and u guys are gettin the server first, gratz for that and for specing DG to get it done. But wouldn't it be safe to say, that a group trying to progress through content at this stage in the game do what they can to prepare for the encounter before even setting foot into it? IDk. IMO a progression kill is one that you work your way up to on sort of a ladder. Granted hey, u got server first and all but are u having all pallies respec just go get that kill nowadays? For a typical group, IMO, i wouldn't recommend it among the holy pally and ret pally. U say that u only use sheath of light as ret and i'm not a strong ret pally so I wont argue that point.

As for holy, can u link me a build that forgoes the ret talents in lieu of DG? If u saying that u can spamcast holy light in nax 25 without ret tree talents I am intersted in seeing that build so that pallies in my guild can take a gander at it. i'm not arguing its ability to be a viable spec, I've just never heard of it so i would like to see more info on it.

back on topic, I guess I am wrong, Joana says u can be a very powerful holy pally or ret pally and still get Dg so, I guess there's your answer.

I guess I have to agree if the spec isn't hurt, then might as well use DG. It is EXTREMELY VIABLE in terms of its usefulness.
But like i've stressed it would have to depend on how far specing into DG alters your current spec (ie ret/holy)
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:59 am

My point was only that its a minimal sacrifice for a ton of raid-wide mitigation on the primary source of damage taken by the raid in phase 1 and 2. I wouldnt make an issue about making paladins go respec to it, but if you are losing people in those phases theres no good reason why they shouldnt.
It would prove helpful for a guild that didnt have many druid or priest healers and was paladin healer heavy, for example, which is hardly their fault.

Remember that an AOE heal nerf is coming, and the vortexs were specifically tuned around them.
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Postby kensanity » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:15 pm

Off topic but can u link a common holy pally build that incorporates dg? I want holy pally in my guild to try it out as I do believe that dg is very helpful in many encounters
Joanadark wrote:My point was only that its a minimal sacrifice for a ton of raid-wide mitigation on the primary source of damage taken by the raid in phase 1 and 2. I wouldnt make an issue about making paladins go respec to it, but if you are losing people in those phases theres no good reason why they shouldnt.
It would prove helpful for a guild that didnt have many druid or priest healers and was paladin healer heavy, for example, which is hardly their fault.

Remember that an AOE heal nerf is coming, and the vortexs were specifically tuned around them.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:04 pm

Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Celestira » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:13 am

I was already specced into DG when we finally downed Maly today.

I blow it during the first deep breath in phase two to ease the strain on the healers after P1. I don't use it for vortex cause I'd much rather have shield wall available cause he hits like a truck.
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