[25] 3 Drake Sarth

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[25] 3 Drake Sarth

Postby sfrog » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:37 pm

We've been working on this for about 2 weeks now, and there's 3 major stumbling blocks for us. I was wondering what other guilds have done, make up, and parses to compare, to see if we're doing something wrong.

Our raid make up is 1 DK tank on Sarth, 1 Warrior on Drake Adds, and 1 Prot Paladin & 1 Warrior on Flames/Whelps. We had for healers, 1 Druid, 2 Paladins, 1 Holy Priest and 3 Shamans. The top 5 DPS is a Spriest, followed by a Mage, another Spriest, and another Mage, with a Balance druid being 5th. The Melee is anywhere from 4 to 5% less damage done from the top.

So far we wipe because the first drake breaths on the raid, the melee dies to a void zone, the flame/whelp tanks have to chase down adds from people running away, or people eat flame walls. What's been happening is we can get the first drake to about 10% when the second one lands, and that's usually where he breathes on the raid if the melee haven't already died.

What I've noticed personally is that outside of the tanks and healers no one is flasking or eating food buffs (even the cheap stuff). Also, it's rather easy to pick up whelps, but I'm failing pretty hardcore at the flames - I'll grab flame B off a Healer with a quick ShoR or HoR, drag it back to the tanking area, only to find flame A I'd previously grabbed is now chasing a DPS, halfway across the platform straight into a firewall. I'll go to grab A and the one that just spawned up with B booking it to another DPS. I'm spending most of my time chasing flames chasing DPS it feels like.
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Postby Cakes » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:51 pm

For questions about the fight mechanics, go here:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=17546

However, you have a lot of problems that aren't necessarily inherent to the fight. Flasks and food... I don't know what to say. If these things aren't important to people now, especially people that have raided previous content (I'm assuming, here), then when will it ever matter? Content is only going to get harder, not easier, and it's prohibitive to the raid team to not enforce consumables, especially as easy as they've gotten. Two flasks, one if you're an alchemist, and a stack of food are all that's required to raid now. You can make it even easier by having the guild chip in and build feasts, which saves on spices and everyone can benefit from them at least somewhat.

The other problems you're having are due to people either not paying attention, playing poorly, or some combination of both. Quite simply, your melee dps has to stop dying. Any easy way to counter melee void zone deaths is to have one person designated to call out when to move. Whatever you do for Kel'Thuzad, do that here as well. As for flame walls, unless you're a tank, and even if you are, there's zero excuse for eating one other than disconnecting. They're large, extremely visible, and even have an emote for when they're coming. Think of them like any other fight mechanic that would one shot you.

Flames are typically a problem when you can't see due to the number of mobs on you, but the rest of the time your raid group should be helping you out. Our melee typically handle their own flames just through aoe damage, and all our healers and ranged know to ask for a taunt if they don't think they're losing agro in a reasonable amount of time. Your raid team should know that moving and positioning 20+ mobs to suit them is a lot harder than them coming to you with one mob.
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Postby Joanadark » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:51 am

The top 5 DPS is a Spriest, followed by a Mage, another Spriest, and another Mage, with a Balance druid being 5th. The Melee is anywhere from 4 to 5% less damage done from the top.


As a melee DPSer, I can tell you that the drake hit boxes are EXTREMELY small and squirrelly. Its annoying as hell, particularly in a melee heavy raid where you can get boxed out by voids. Any drake movement at all is almost bound to be a dps loss for the melee trying to readjust to their stupidly small hitboxes.
Your tanking positioning and placement strategy need to adjust based on this. Lava Dipping helps a great deal.
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Postby hoho » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:23 am

I'd put DK's tanking/dps'ing the smaller adds and have priests throw out occasional devouring plague there. IIRC DP was second after mind sear in damage done on our 2-drake attempts doing ~3-4x more damage than it usually does for single target.

Also, spriests should dominate the overall damage charts on that fight, mind sear is just ridicilously overpowered with its 30k+ damage per second on 20 targets.
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Postby blish » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:38 am

We use 2 holy Pallys, 2 Restro druids, 1 restro Shammey,1 Holy Priest, 1 Disc Priest.

Mt = Dk, Feral druid on the Drakes and either a Prot Pally of Prot warrior on all adds. also limit ourselves to 4 melee 5 at the very most and one of them calls void zones.

The healers should be in the middle somewhere and if they do grab agro then they can run to the add tank.

We found its just a movement fight and like a pre nurf of Muri fight.

As far as flasks and food go if people don't have them then there just not in the guild.
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Postby Mex » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:19 pm

As others have said, there are some simple solutions to a couple of your problems. Of course simple doesn't necessarily mean easy :\

Raiders should be required to use consumables, it's as simple as that. I get when people don't use speed pots, flasks and food just seem ... mandatory. It's like doing a fight without your helm. You need start enforcing the use of consumables. Tell people that they need them, and that they'll be checked. Have the raid leader use a buff check mod. If people don't use them, the first step is to really stress how important they are to the encounter. Make sure that they understand that Sarth is a DPS check, not just in terms of finishing the encounter in X minutes, but also in terms of finishing the various portions asap. You need to kill Tenebron before too many whelps spawn. You need to kill Shadron and then his disciples before you run out of cooldowns to use on your Sarth tank, etc etc. Doing that extra little bit of DPS can mean the difference between a 90 second attempt and a 4 minute one, or more. If people still refuse, rotate them out for people who do have consumables, even if those people are undergeared. It's much easier to gear up an undergeared player than it is to force a cheapskate to use full consumables every attempt. If you don't have people to rotate in, simply call the raid for the night, and start trying to recruit on the forums / trade channel. Make them know you're serious about it. The objective here shouldn't be to gkick everyone in the guild, but just to scare them into taking responsibility. You don't wanna be too heavy about this.

Likewise, there's a very easy fix for void zone / flame wall deaths. Have people pay attention and skill up. There's no excuse for dying to these things after a couple of hours of attempts, let alone a couple of weeks. The new DBM plays Karazhan's Big Bad Wolf's "Run away little girl!" sound when the flame wall comes too, check it out. Again, if people are simply unable to live through these things, replace them with people who can. An undergeared DPS who lives the entire fight will do more damage than a full T7 one who dies in the first minute.

Picking up the mobs is somewhat trickier, but we found that having 2 tanks dedicated to it made one of them 90% redundant. As a pally or DK it's very doable, warriors / druids may have more trouble though. Personally, I keep a consecration down underneath Tenebron's portal at all times, the only exception being if I have to run through a flame wall to do that. Likewise, I try to keep holy shield up as much as possible, and make sure I'm facing the adds as much as possible. Block is a very large portion of mitigation here. Finally, the picking up itself. Having people clump is not at all viable, so don't bother. Make sure you have PoJ (don't rely on unholy aura, it can be flame walled / void zoned off), and just run around grabbing eles as they spawn. HotR is great, its bounce range is quite high, and can be useful for picking up mobs just outside your melee range. ShoR will guarantee that any ele sticks to you. Judgement is great as well, with its 10 yard range. Really, all our abilities are really well suited to this. If you need something with a longer range, that's when you use avenger's shield or taunt (just not on mobs that are attacking another tank!). Weave back and forth across the platform, picking up adds, and dropping your consecrate on the portal when you pass it. When whelps spawn, they should come to you. Make sure you have holy shield up, plant, consecrate again, and make sure you establish a good amount of threat on them. By this time, Tenebron should ideally be almost dead. When Shadron lands, have a hunter MD him to the MT, everyone else should turn and AoE the whelps / eles. During this time, move out of void zones / flame walls, but otherwise stay still. Use taunt / shield throw to grab new adds out of judgement range.

Once you've mastered pickups, the only real danger becomes enraged eles. This happens. Sometimes you have to move a long way to avoid a flame wall, sometimes the spawns are bad, sometimes they change agro as you're dragging them out of the way. Whatever the case, they hit a lot harder. If you get more than about 4 hitting you, then use divine protection, and call for hunters to turn and tranq shot a few. Finally, you want to make it VERY clear to your AoE DPS not to use moves like frost nova or shockwave, which can risk trapping eles in the path of oncoming flame waves. You also want to avoid, however, abilities like Thunderstorm, Typhoon, and Blastwave, which cause knockbacks. I remember one attempt I was tanking perhaps 15 eles and 12 whelps, and a shaman Thunderstormed, knocking all the mobs behind me. Before I could so much as spin around, I was dead. The extra DPS just isn't worth it. Stick to Seed of Corruption, Magma Totem, non-improved Blizzard, Volley, Hurricane, etc.

Honestly, it's something that you'll get the hang of with practice, but just make sure your raid uses consumables and starts paying attention to walls / void zones, so that you're actually able to get that practice in.
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Re: [25] 3 Drake Sarth

Postby Conaan! » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:03 pm

sfrog wrote:We've been working on this for about 2 weeks now, and there's 3 major stumbling blocks for us. I was wondering what other guilds have done, make up, and parses to compare, to see if we're doing something wrong.

Our raid make up is 1 DK tank on Sarth, 1 Warrior on Drake Adds, and 1 Prot Paladin & 1 Warrior on Flames/Whelps. We had for healers, 1 Druid, 2 Paladins, 1 Holy Priest and 3 Shamans. The top 5 DPS is a Spriest, followed by a Mage, another Spriest, and another Mage, with a Balance druid being 5th. The Melee is anywhere from 4 to 5% less damage done from the top.

So far we wipe because the first drake breaths on the raid, the melee dies to a void zone, the flame/whelp tanks have to chase down adds from people running away, or people eat flame walls. What's been happening is we can get the first drake to about 10% when the second one lands, and that's usually where he breathes on the raid if the melee haven't already died.

What I've noticed personally is that outside of the tanks and healers no one is flasking or eating food buffs (even the cheap stuff). Also, it's rather easy to pick up whelps, but I'm failing pretty hardcore at the flames - I'll grab flame B off a Healer with a quick ShoR or HoR, drag it back to the tanking area, only to find flame A I'd previously grabbed is now chasing a DPS, halfway across the platform straight into a firewall. I'll go to grab A and the one that just spawned up with B booking it to another DPS. I'm spending most of my time chasing flames chasing DPS it feels like.


3 immediate problems:

DPS, ingame threat meter, no reason to be pulling off tanks now, and its not hard to notice the tank running for a different mob

Flask/foods, Jozzer should be enforcing these, i mean, you killed KJ in BC, must have had a huge change happen there

picking up runners, Hunters work well for mobs that are running, distracting shot can pull it to the hunter, indirectly to you, allowing a quick pickup in between RD CD's
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