The extreme lameness of the priest requirement in Naxx/25

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Postby Morganim » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:35 am

3x Undead
1x Troll
1x Belf i think

all can do it fine

This game is casual enough as it is, if a guild cant recruit a handfull of priests and have them rock up for 25 man raz, then its in my belief that the said guild doesnt care about the fight enough to want to beat it. But no istead people just bitch until they get it easy mode. The crystals where fine for 10 man, but why change the fight completely from the old level 60 content, you already dont need to LoS shouts so its basically patchwerk v2, stand back and nuke/heal


@ the ROS thing, i dont mention it because it never bothered me, i tanked p2 ros a ton of times, pre 3.0 and pre sunwell, never needed spell reflect, maybe my dps was good enough not to need the debuff (forget name now days) maybe my healers where good enough that i could live through it.
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Postby Frickit » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:22 am

did this fight for the second time ever last night and it was the same two priests. We clear vent and the two of them coordinate tanking and mc'ing...really easy fight for everyone else...so find a couple people who can talk.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:12 am

Our mindcontrollers are all undead priests, and one belf priest.

Results are that all of them got 2% resist chance. We experienced *once* MC breaking too soon, i just asked a warlock to put CoE on the adds everytime the MC broke.
Worked flawlessly that time, and all other time worked flawlessly as well.

MC is a odd mechanic and that's why you have 2 adds MCd and taunting, if one goes loose, Raz should go back to previous one. Maybe kill it, but it's nowhere close as being a DPS race anyway.
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Postby Jaydin » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:43 am

a little off topic but I didn't see any other posts directed at Instructor...anyone else have issues holding aggro on the dropped adds?

last night I was holding the unused adds, using a warrior tank as my delivery boy - priest would drop MC, warrior would taunt it, run it over to me - i'd taunt off him, get aggro...then within seconds see it go running off after the warrior or a healer. the only way I could seem to hold one was to spam AS, HotR, Judgement, and Shield slam in rapid succession just to get his attention back...and if i had one of those on cd chances are i had to go chasing it through the raid as it ignored me >_<
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Postby Adanel » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:52 am

Jaydin wrote:last night I was holding the unused adds, using a warrior tank as my delivery boy - priest would drop MC, warrior would taunt it, run it over to me - i'd taunt off him, get aggro...then within seconds see it go running off after the warrior or a healer.

You only get the mob attention when you taunt, not the person he's attacking total aggro, only mobs in the game i remember with this behavior.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:45 am

Worldie wrote:MC is a odd mechanic and that's why you have 2 adds MCd and taunting, if one goes loose, Raz should go back to previous one. Maybe kill it, but it's nowhere close as being a DPS race anyway.


No, you have 2 adds MCed so there's overlap when the MC duration breaks -- the 2nd trainee tanks Raz while the first re-applies MC. Otherwise when the MC breaks, Raz just starts running around one shotting the raid.

@Morganim: guess you've had more luck with the RNG; even if you have an off night, I doubt we'll ever hear about it. Yes, I tanked RoS long before 3.0 as well, but our first 3 kills we still needed a warrior tank as we were still gearing up. P2 didn't need a paladin tank once your raid was geared enough, but getting geared enough without a warrior tank for p2 was somewhat problematic.

@Jaydin: if you have omen up, you'll see that your taunt doesn't give you the previous tank's threat. You'll actually have to rip it off the previous tank. Which is kind of odd, since we have a tank pick up MC breaks until the priest can re-acquire them. Not sure what he's doing, as I'm usually just AFK/HS with the unused trainees off in the corner.

Regardless of how easy the Raz fight is (and yes, it is easy), it's still a stupid fight because it does require a specific class comp dependent on class gimmicks.

Using MC crystals instead of being dependent on priest MC is not nerfing the fight at all -- it just gives you latitude over who has MC duty -- it doesn't change the fight mechanics or mob health or damage ... or anything about the actual fight. I fail to see how changing who does the MC makes it "easy mode." You have 4 priests: does changing which priests do the MC make it "easy mode"? No, of course not. Why shouldn't you be able to change out a different class for a priest? How does that make it "easy mode," pray tell?

You can talk all you want about how easy the fight is and how little trouble you personally have with it, and pass judgment on guilds who have problems with the two priest requirement, but you're still missing the point: gimmick fights dependent on a single class ability are bad game design, and run contrary to the stated design goals of the Blizz dev team.

Recruiting for a single fight is beyond stupid, and having to specifically recruit add'l people that you'd then have to gear and then bench people you've been raiding with for years, or to have to level alts for a single fight, is stupid.

Again: I personally don't have to deal with any of the above, but I still understand the point of people who complain about the requirement, and have yet to see a counter argument that doesn't boil down to "omg stfu l2play," which isn't exactly a sterling defense of the mechanic.
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Postby Joanadark » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:42 am

Use the mage strat.

We have 4 raiding priests, 2 of whom are officers, and we use the mage strat by choice. Screw mind controlling.
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Postby Strendarr » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:18 am

Lore wrote:I see two primary issues being discussed here and I think they're overlapping a lot.

#1: Priest tanking Razuvious is hard.

No it's not. It's Mind control, 6 5 444444444444444444444444 6 5 44444444444444 repeat. It isn't any more taxing on the player than Malygos (in fact, significantly less so), so if your Priests can't handle MC tanking Razuvious, they need to either learn or be replaced or you will not be able to kill Malygos.

#2: Requiring two Priest is annoying.

Yeah, kinda. There was actually a blue post about it in beta (Kalgan I think). They said they were keeping an eye on it, but didn't think requiring 2 priests was too much of a stretch. I'm inclined to agree, even though I only have one reliable priest. If it helps, Razuvious' drops are mostly terrible and all the gear the priest needs can be picked up from even non-heroic 5mans, so if anyone's got a Priest alt, that can work too.


Razuvius's loot table doesn't help. We cleared the rest of Naxx 25 on Tuesday, all the wings, in 3 hours (people assuming its a terrible guild from my original post take note of this). We then decided to swim the sludge to go and hit up Gothik and 4H from the back way.

Too bad, so sad, closed doors to both bosses if Razuvius isn't killed first.

The problem isn't his loot table, the problem is that he is literally the gatekeeper to:

Gothik
Four Horsemen
Sapphiron
Kel'Thuzad

Tonight, we actually had our two priests that raid login at the SAME TIME to raid.
HALLELUJAH.

Then we spent the time doing what should've been done weeks ago.

We wiped like 6-10 times waiting for them to figure out what the hell to do with these things they were mc'ing because all either of them EVER does is heal.

So, with LOTS of help, these two switched from the healing mentality to the tanking mentality and learned how to do it. So, Razuvius died.

We then spent the rest of the night learning 25 man Gothik and 25 man Four Horsemen, and we'd started damn late

The point of all this is that it's forcing a class that never tanks to tank stuff in a 25 man raid, with the fate of the raid on them. Maybe a lot of you guys have guilds full of hardcore players where this switch is no problem, but not all of us are like that. For some people change comes slowly, and it's not becuase they're "terribad", its because that's who they are as people and that's why they rolled priests. They didn't roll them to tank, ever.

Requiring a fight to be based around the priest spell Mind Control "just becuase they have it" is like a fight requirement being based around a paladin's ability to do DPS at range.

"well you have like... this spell... you know... exorcism, yeah, its got a long range on it"
"yeah, what about it?"
"well, we designed a boss encounter around exorcism, doesn't that sound FUN?"
"huh? wait... what? .... WHAT??"

I don't see the point of defending something just because "its how things used to be back in good old 'ot 4". Apparently it is a problem.

Besides, what ever happened to "we don't want to rely on gimmicks to make our content challenging anymore", especially since if you have two priests who CAN do it properly, it's possibly the easiest bossfight in there and you can /scoff at anyone having difficulty. If you don't have that luxury of having those particular priests, you're completely F'ed in the A.
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Postby HinataDestiny » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:28 am

/join GuildRecruitment
/4 <Insert Guild Name Here> is recruiting priests for hardcore progressive raiding. X, X, and X cleared. For more info visit <Insert Guild Website Here>.
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Postby Strendarr » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:33 am

Majiben wrote:I really dislike that they have this requirement. There is no good explaination why they didn't use the same mechanics as in the 10 man.
You make a class where they is no tanking tree have to tank for the one encounter since level 60 naxx. Why? Because of flavor. Well that's all fine and dandy if you happen to be running with two shadowpriests in your raid who have tank alts for some reason.

How does this flavor taste to the guild that run with 1 or no priests? How does it taste to the holy priest who has never mced or tanked in their life. How about to the priest who has no hit gear and suffers constant mc breaks. How about the player who thinks that the stundent's bone shield works like the DK one and wipes their raid by hitting it early thinking they were doing a good thing? What about the guild running with 6 healers who are forced to 4 heal the fight because they have 2 priest healers. How does it taste to the hours spent learning how have the priest mc, work out a tank rotation and knowing where and when to break the mc when you have 2-4 tanks in your raid that already know how to do it. What about the repairs of the rest of the raid while your guild wipes because the priest have no idea what the hell is going on and why do they have to practice something they have never seen before or will need to do again?


btw just wanted to quote this post from page 1 because his prediction of what would happen in the situation he described (and my guild experienced tonight) was DEAD ON ACCURRATE.
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Postby Strendarr » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:35 am

HinataDestiny wrote:/join GuildRecruitment
/4 <Insert Guild Name Here> is recruiting priests for hardcore progressive raiding. X, X, and X cleared. For more info visit <Insert Guild Website Here>.


recruiting random people for one fight (or levelling alts) and replacing your normal raiders for them is lame, but we've been over this.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:14 pm

Joanadark wrote:Use the mage strat.

We have 4 raiding priests, 2 of whom are officers, and we use the mage strat by choice. Screw mind controlling.


We tried the mage strat, and the mage died 10 seconds after his 3rd spell steal. Didn't look deeply into it, but have you ever had that happen?
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Postby Doddin » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:55 am

So after skipping the Military Wing for 2 weeks i proposed the mage tank method to our raid leader. He said "ok lets give it a shot with the priests first". Our priests fail miserably. MC breaks early and often as usual and Raz makes quick work of those who don't run. Raz doesn't even drop below 90%.

So we try the mage tank method and get him to 60%(our best ever) when our mage dies unexpectedly. The next attempt Raz goes down. DPS had to watch their aggro very carefully while we had 3 hunters and 2 rogues constantly MDing the mage and the mage was only spaming spellsteal to be on the safe side.

Besides the slight threat issue it worked beautifully

However, after the raid i came across this beauty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_ggLGj37qI
a mage soloing the military quarter

So if a mage spec'd for Incanters Absorption tanks Raz, threat should be not an issue what so ever

Mage strat is cake
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:04 am

We tried the mage strat, and the mage died 10 seconds after his 3rd spell steal. Didn't look deeply into it, but have you ever had that happen?


doesnt matter, they broke it in a hotfix today.
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Postby Unholly » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:07 pm

Nax 25 pug today we got 2 priests who had nvr done it b4, ended up using all the understudies and all 3 tanks but we got him down :D

Went on to clear the instance, all WOTLK raids pugged bar Maly 25 :twisted:
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