DPS in tanking spec?

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DPS in tanking spec?

Postby Andris » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:54 pm

I'm sure that many of you raiding Naxx+ have noticed that there are a number of fights which either need only one tank (e.g. Sapphiron) or only occaisonally need a tank (e.g. Grobbulus, to grab Fallout Slimes). Since I can't win every /roll to tank, there's a fair bit of time available for me to DPS in those fights.

What I'm doing right now is equipping my +BV gear and abusing the Libram of Obstruction/double-ShoR bug, with Righteous Fury off. I'm wondering if I should carry around my ret set pieces for this time (mostly about 13 ilvls behind my main set, with some variation)

I'd like to consider this scenario without the double-ShoR bug, since that's what the world will look like going forward. I'm wondering whether I should use Seal of Blood or Seal of Vengeance when DPSing. (I have the SoV glyph, so it's 10 expertise vs. extra damage from SoB) I'm thinking that SoB is probably better, though I haven't done the math on it.

Near as I can figure, static values for BV, AP, and Strength:

1 BV ~ 1.7 damage on ShoR every 6s, or about 0.28dps
1 AP ~ 0.07 dps (white) + 0.045 dps (HotR)
maybe 0.04 dps (Consecrate, if mana permits)
Judgement dps (0.045dps with SoB, 0.015 with SoV)
SoV dps (0.05dps)
1 Str = 0.14dps (ShoR) + 0.16 * 2.3 (AP) + seal damage

It looks a lot like strength is going to be a lot better than Block Value, with either SoB or SoV; 1 Str would probably contribute around 0.5dps or so.

What would the value of Crit/Haste/Hit/Expertise be in comparison? Should I strap on some high-crit gear, or is hit/expertise important to max out first?

I've never put together a dps spreadsheet, but I'm sort of curious what other people do, and what gear you carry. Pre-BC, I'd be a 0.5 healer if I wasn't tanking, but that kinda sucked. (and I'd usually put up SoW/JoW and smack the mob between casts for weak mana regen) I can definitely put the hurt out now -- as a DK who decided to bother me when I was doing the Wintergrasp dragon-arrows daily found out. :twisted:
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Postby Ashmadai » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:45 am

You'll do the most damage possible with your ret gear on, except you'll still wear sword and board for HotR and ShoR. The increased AP/Crit help out for this purpose. As for using SoB for this purpose, I would try to find the slowest 1 hander you can that still has equal DPS to your tanking weapon and use SoB instead of Corruption.
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:11 am

Ashmadai wrote:You'll do the most damage possible with your ret gear on
Not necessarily true.

The stats you'll want first and for most are Str and SBV.

Crit, hit, expertise are all fine but should not be taken over str and BV.

I haven't run the numbers yet but I don't think AP would do too well. Better than crit, hit and expertise but not great. Stamina also ranks as a dps for prot.
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Postby Belarkan » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:45 am

You get more AP than str in ret set.
I do more dps in my tanking gear (mostly 200 ilvl epics) than ret in my ret gear (187 to 213 iLvl items).
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:00 am

Belarkan wrote:You get more AP than str in ret set.
You're not being clear with that comment. Of course you get more AP than str in anygear. Str converts a 1:2.3 for ret and prot paladins. Additional you can get 2 AP for 1 str on gear since they cost a different amount of item points.
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Postby Tats » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:48 am

i think what he meant was that you will have more attack power per piece than pure strength, with ret gear.

at pretty low gear levels, ret gear+sword/shield will do the best. as soon as you start hitting some naxx, you will most likely do more dps in protection gear. most of your dps is going to be ShoR.
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:44 pm

Tats wrote:i think what he meant was that you will have more attack power per piece than pure strength, with ret gear.

at pretty low gear levels, ret gear+sword/shield will do the best. as soon as you start hitting some naxx, you will most likely do more dps in protection gear. most of your dps is going to be ShoR.
Again getting more AP than str is always a given.

Plate dps gear is not currently itemized for AP so you can't mean that.
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Postby Flex » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:26 pm

Rings, necklaces and cloaks are more prevalent in AP flavor than strength flavor.

Here's a grand idea.

Wear plate DPS gear and tanking accessories to maximize strength.
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Postby Modal » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:44 pm

I have a mostly-epic ret set, but I still find that I only swap in a few pieces of it when I'm doing prot dps. I'm thinking my old Coren's Coin/Autoblocker combo would actually be the best of my trinkets for prot dps, but I haven't actually tested that yet (I never remember to bring them).

There's a lot of Strength on tank gear these days, and we don't have the talents to support stacking Crit in the way that Ret paladins do.

I do tend to use SoB, at least on fights without a lot of raid damage, despite losing 10 expertise, just because it's hard not to run oom. That will nerf your dps more than anything else.
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Postby Tats » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:15 pm

Majiben wrote:Plate dps gear is not currently itemized for AP so you can't mean that.


who ever said his ret set was plate?

anyway.

using 2x ShoR as your primary source of damage, stack BV/STR, and then replace the pieces that dont have either with ret gear.
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Postby Candiru » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:49 pm

using Seal of Blood and a slow 1 hander makes a big difference too. I found that my 140dps 1.6 sword was doing slightly less damage than my 110dps 2.8 mace.

I need to get a high DPS slow weapon now...
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Postby Ashmadai » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:29 pm

You're wearing the wrong Ret set if it doesn't have more STR on it than your Tank gear. Rings are usually an exception because they tend to lack STR sometimes for the DPS rings.

Honestly, I don't carry my ret gear with me. If I need to DPS while OTing I just do it in my tank gear with Hotr/ShoR and Judging and it works more than fine. But you will get more DPS out of the ret gear because you will have about equal STR which means about equal AP and SBV, and you'll have an ton more Crit.

maybe going to a super max SBV set might give the best returns, but I haven't tested it. I know I can get up to around 1800 unbuffed SBV with every piece of gear I have that has raw SBV, so that might make the best set since ShoR only has a 6 second CD. Especially if you were using both ranks, though I do not do that.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:16 pm

You're wearing the wrong Ret set if it doesn't have more STR on it than your Tank gear. Rings are usually an exception because they tend to lack STR sometimes for the DPS rings.

Amusingly, some tank pieces rank extremely high for ret DPS.

Also, you're wrong. Some of the best "gearing up" pieces are leather. Yes, in the end ret will wear nothing but plate. However, simply washing and saying "ret gear has more str" is far from correct. A more probably statement is "ret gear has more AP." A fair example is the leather DPS belt from naxx and gloves from pinnacle - both of which are better than blues and the leather belt is superior to the (typical) str girdle by a small margin for ret. A ret set can include -much- more expertise that is less desirable for protection due to talents, glyphs, and worse scaling (white hits and HotR vs white hits, crusader strike, divine storm).

I know for a fact my tanking cloak has more str/hit than my ret cloak, but my ret cloak is superior for ret and not for prot dps.
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Postby Ascendant » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:00 am

with full raid buffs (I'm not sure how they factor in) I was seeing very modest dps increases from BV. Given I still believe that ret gear is better, i think it is only better if goes without haste or expertise (so hit/crit/STR only); otherwise I say BV gear would be the better choice. this is purely experience, i haven't looked at any number comparisons.
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Postby Threatco » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:22 pm

I carry my heal set for cases where I don't need to tank
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