Void Reaver and killing speed

A'lar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael'thas

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Void Reaver and killing speed

Postby Brute » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:05 am

So, if you have 7 minutes on the enrage timer, and he's at 70%... isn't that bad?

My thinking is that you are definately going to have some people die in that next 70%, assuming none have died already. Thus, your DPS will slow down, and thus you will fall behind on the timer instead of just barely keeping up. While its true that warriors get execute and mages get that talent in the fire tree, there's no assurance that half the raid won't be dead at 20% (we're learning the fight so flares are an issue still).

I'm wondering if my guild is just wasting their time on this fight when plenty of people out of that 25-man raid still need a significant chunk of Kara gear (I myself need 12 peices of gear from preceeding raid instances, and I'm a tank for God's sake).

I'm just wondering why my guild doesn't make sure to clear Kara, Gruul, and maybe even Mag before even setting foot into TK on any given week. Is this pretty common or do guilds usually try to get everyone the majority of gear they need before moving on?
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Postby Gracerath » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:54 am

Very first time we killed him, we had like 30 seconds left on the enrage timer. Another time, we had about 10 seconds left. Since then, we've got him down to about a 6-7 minute kill. Still got some improving to do but there is plenty of time left just in case.

Have your dps squeak out a bit more. Make sure everyone is using consumables, using their trinkets every cooldown, etc. Just be sure they are also using their threat reducing abilities as much as possible too.

So yes, more gear will help you guys out and it will be close but I think its in the realm of possibility. The fact that you can clear the trash while that under geared is pretty significant ;)
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Postby Oramac » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:01 am

also, have the rogues vanish at 70% instead of when they get close to the tank. this way they can usually vanish again near the end of the fight and burn the fucker down.

and a SS on the DPS warriors is good too. or better yet, SS the ret pally and have him DI the dps warrior. threat drop for both of them.
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Postby Brute » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:22 am

Gracerath wrote:Very first time we killed him, we had like 30 seconds left on the enrage timer. Another time, we had about 10 seconds left. Since then, we've got him down to about a 6-7 minute kill.

Is this because of gear or strategy? Obviously some of both, but which do you think has played the bigger part?

Gracerath wrote:So yes, more gear will help you guys out and it will be close but I think its in the realm of possibility. The fact that you can clear the trash while that under geared is pretty significant ;)

Well both times we've been in the Eye, we've had two extremely well geared tanks, and most all of our people are very good at their class and follow instructions to the letter. This seems to be enough to get us to VR, but the DPS out put/high enough threat cap just isn't there.
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Postby Dreamcrusher » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:35 am

I don't think that strategy plays an important part in DPS on void reaver.

It's more of a "can your tanks put out enough threat for your melee to go balls to the wall" type of thing.


And don't sweat him being at 70% if you have 7 minutes left. Unless you have a LOT of people dying, that last 20% goes very quickly. DPS warriors get a lot of rage from the pounding, which turns into massive dps from execute spam. So unless you dont have very many DPS warriors, or you have a lot of people dead, 70% is about on schedule.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:58 am

As long as your % / 10 is = to the minutes remaning, its fine. Don't forget mages and warriors get DPS increase at last 20%.
Even if you get 10% down every minute, at the worst you will kill him a few seconds into the enrage timer.
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Postby Brute » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:02 am

Dreamcrusher wrote:Unless you have a LOT of people dying


That's the problem then. We do fine for the first 3 minutes, then start losing people at a rate of about 3/min or faster. Thus when we did manage to get him down to 20% one time, the raid was at least half dead.

So I guess the ranged people and healers getting better at avoiding the flares is what's called for here. Practice practice practice.
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Postby Dreamcrusher » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:15 am

Yep, you nailed it.


Ranged should NEVER take damage. If they do, it is a failure to move correctly. Melee should never die unless the healers fail to heal them.
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Postby Joanadark » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:42 am

100% over 10 minutes.

10% per minute is considered "on track" for a kill.
Remember that 19%-0% should go significantly faster than the rest.

Only worry and consider resetting if you fall behind 10% per minute remaining.
Generally, its better to reset the encounter if you have more than one person die in the first 40-50%.

Its just a "stay alive" fight.

If you are just a tiny bit behind, remember that Shield Wall on a warrior tank can buy you an extra few seconds, and the fact that everyone is spread across the entire room will buy you maybe 5-10 seconds more before wipe if the tank dies.
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Postby Lonso » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:20 pm

As you get better you stop losing people and you don't drop in dps over the course of the fight. We typically have one or maybe two deaths and might battle rez if it was someone important. People just need to learn to get away from the orbs.
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Postby Joanadark » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:17 pm

Oramac wrote:also, have the rogues vanish at 70% instead of when they get close to the tank. this way they can usually vanish again near the end of the fight and burn the fucker down.


normally my guild coordinates all invisibilities/soulshatters/vanishes at about 75%, but yeah, whereever you decide to do it is just a matter of what fits your raid.
I personally favor using it just that little bit sooner so that the abilities are up again right about where we seem to experience the most trouble with the tanks' threat being dangerously eroded (normally somewhere between 20-25% for us).
there always seems to be one such point which you hit eventually, and if you dont anticipate it and plan around it your enhancement shaman, ret paladin, or DPS warriors can easily take it and die.

What do I mean when I refer to a critical threat point? Let me try to clarify a little bit..

It seems that in the later stages of the fight when a single tank holds aggro through multiple knock-backs, they will normally, when they finally lose aggro, have been knocked down so far that it can take a good 30+ seconds to climb back up into the upper spots on threat.

Where early in the fight you see the tanks just kind of rotate up and down each other's threat, in the later stages you see tanks getting bumped down past the top couple DPS before working themselves back up.
The larger the threat totals get, the bigger the deficit when a tank gets knocked out of aggro, and the harder it can be to regain the upper spots.

If the distribution of knock-backs each tank has taken over the course of the fight til that point has been fairly even, it is possibly to run into a serious problem of ALL your tanks getting bumped significantly down in quick succession.
When this happens, your upper-threat DPSers become crippled and forced into inaction, and there can be a desperate fight to power a second tank up to #2 before the current tank inevitably loses aggro.


The reason this happens is the nature of the knock-backs being a percentile reduction of your current TOTAL threat on Void Reaver.

For example, let's say when the very first knockback of the fight happens, the threat list looks like this:

Aggro Gain--11,000----110%
Tank 1-------10,000----100% <----Aggro
Tank 2--------9,000------90%
Tank 3--------8,500------85%
DPS-----------8,000------80%
DPS-----------8,000------80%
DPS-----------8,000------80%



I can't remember off the top of my head what the percent actually is, but let's say that it is 10%...


/Knock-Back


Aggro Gain---9,900----110%
Tank 1--------9,000----100% <--Aggro
Tank 2--------9,000----100%
Tank 3--------8,500------94%
DPS-----------8,000------88%
DPS-----------8,000------88%
DPS-----------8,000------88%

Notice that Tank 1 still retains aggro after getting knocked back, but Tank 2 now has exactly the same amount of threat as he does. It requires 110% threat to pull aggro when in melee range, so Tank 1 will keep aggro for another round.


Now, I like simple easy math, so I'm going to completely unrealistically pretend that the threat values of everyone in the raid are 10 times that of the above threat list.
This isn't an important point, what is important is that the different members of the raid will retain the same proportional amount of threat to each other because we will assume that their Threat/second and Damage/second is a constant average over time.


So right before the next knock back, the chart looks like this:

Aggro Gain---99,000----110%
Tank 1--------90,000----100% <--Aggro
Tank 2--------90,000----100%
Tank 3--------85,000------94%
DPS-----------80,000------88%
DPS-----------80,000------88%
DPS-----------80,000------88%


Tank 1 gets knocked back a second time.

/Knock-Back


Aggro Gain---99,000----110%
Tank 2--------90,000----100% <----Aggro
Tank 3--------85,000------94%
Tank 1--------81,000------90%
DPS-----------80,000------88%
DPS-----------80,000------88%
DPS-----------80,000------88%

As you can see, Tank 1 loses aggro and is shot down to third place on the threat list.


This transition represents what goes on early in the fight.

Let's look what happens later, and again, for the sake of simplicity, multiplying everyone's proportional threat up after each step by a completely unrealistic power of 10....


/Knock-Back


Aggro Gain---935,000----110%
Tank 3--------850,000----100% <---Aggro
Tank 1--------810,000-----95%
Tank 2--------810,000-----95%
DPS-----------800,000-----94%
DPS-----------800,000-----94%
DPS-----------800,000-----94%

While all the tanks remain at the top together, their threat totals are starting to show distinctive signs of erosion. Tank 2 was bumped down to equal threat as Tank 1, and Tank 3 gains aggro.

Notice how, while all the players' threat levels remained proportionally equal to each other, the knock-backs are having the effect of making the spread between them get closer and closer. There now exists only 1% of margin of safety between the lowest tanks and the highest DPS, down from a healthy 5%.

/Knock-Back


Aggro Gain---891,000----110%
Tank 1--------810,000----100% <---Aggro
Tank 2--------810,000----100%
DPS-----------800,000-----99%
DPS-----------800,000-----99%
DPS-----------800,000-----99%
Tank 3--------765,000-----94%

And here is what begins to occur in those late stages which can make that critical point hit.
The level of everyone's total threat has reached heights where each knock-back is producing a massive drop in the tank's RELATIVE threat, making them plummet to beneath the upper DPS instead of the mere tank reshuffling which happened earlier.

What is also dangerous is the fact that it takes a much larger numerical amount of threat to reach the 110% to pull aggro off of the current tank normally in the late stages of the fight.
This can mean that the tank who is holding aggro can more easily eat a knock back and actually DROP BELOW another player on the threat list and yet still keep aggro and be the recipient of the next knock-back as well when they were already not the highest on the threat list.
Multiple consecutive knock-backs in the late stages of the encounter are a challenge to combat for a tank, as you can suddenly find yourself shot down on the threat list to below every DPSer without a threat-wipe.

If you're using 3 tanks or more, often the one or two bottom ones will be unavoidably lost at this point, far too low on the threat list to be able to recover. Misdirection and other assistance cannot be spared and must be focused on fighting to keep two tanks on top until they are able to rebuild enough of their threat base, pop another potion, or whatever.

This is the point where you want to time all your threat wipes to be all coming off of cooldown again, and is when they should all be reused.

It'll be very much a subjective thing based on what your tanks are like and how many of them you're using.

One thing I've heard of a guild doing is having thier DPS warriors intentionally ignore their threat-ceiling so as the pull aggro in the middle of the fight, switch to a shield, and absorb one of the knock-backs, giving both a respite to the tanks to build themselves up again, as well as granting themselves a big personal threat drop to widen the gap between the lower tanks and the non-threat wipe capable DPS.


and a SS on the DPS warriors is good too. or better yet, SS the ret pally and have him DI the dps warrior. threat drop for both of them.


this is also an extremely good idea.

The ret paladin raises another point.
The Void Reaver encounter is one where Judgement of Light on the boss is incredibly helpful, because it allows the melee to stay in the pounding while greatly reducing the burden on the healers.

For a paladin tank on this fight, JoW is very important as well, though JotCrusader is too, and the ability of a ret paladin to ensure that all three of these debuffs get on the boss and stay on the boss permanently is an incredible aid to the tankadin, as well as the raid as a whole.

Ret paladins would have a serious problem dealing with threat ceiling, but their presence would allow a tankadin to gain a huge TPS boost through their judgements and Sanctity Aura, and putting a ret paladin in the tank group is a great move for this fight.
The problem of being threat capped means that a Ret paladin their optimized melee DPS group would be a waste as it would only result in the retadin spending longer periods holding back, unable to capitalize on the group buffs and totems they would be receiving.
With a retadin in the Tank group instead, the threat-generation boost the ret paladin grants to the tankadin, as well as the non-negligible 2% damage increase given all the non-paladin tanks, the threat ceiling the ret paladin is trapped beneath would be noticably raised, and, while still limited, the ret paladin would have to hold back much less.





wow, that turned out to be far longer a post than I had expected....

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Postby Oramac » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:13 pm

wow. wall of math hits me for 999999999999.

I die

Equipped items suffer 10% durability loss.


ill take your word for it man. my brain hurts after my econ midterm.
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Postby Pizbit » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:23 pm

Also a small note that in 2.3 rogues specced a few points in to subt will have a 20% dps boost when he's sub 35%.
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Postby Brute » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:34 am

Wow joanadark that was a great post.

Thanks for all the info.
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Postby Aevisarace » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:46 pm

As embarassing as this is, our first Void Reaver kill was 10:52 seconds of combat time.
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