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Help with Leo and Vashj

Hydross, Lurker, Leotheras, Fathom-Lord, Tidewalker, Vashj

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Help with Leo and Vashj

Postby Akonda » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:49 pm

Well I took everyone's advice. I ditched my old guild, and now am in a new guild, a fresh group of faces to persuade that I can tank. That issue aside, this guild formed 3 weeks ago, and is already staring at Lady Vash, with Loot reaver mag etc on farm as well.

Tonight we got our first attempts and our first kill on Leo. Raid leader told me to go in like the rest of the tanks and whoever picks it up hey great, whenever the aggro resets. I got discouraged because I know using 4 prot tanks on Leo is a waste, and strapped on the healing gear, like I always have.

Currently specc'd 41 prot, I do have avenger's shield. I've read that it is nice snap aggro when coupled with misdirect or not, to grab aggro on the boss. I use the shield just as the WW breaks, but I find that between AS and JoR, I simply can't make enough threat to overcome the three full rage bars of my warrior and druid brethren unloading initial threat on Leo.

I've heard all over these boards pallies are great tanks for Leo, and I was honestly looking forward to the one boss I THOUGHT I could tank, but aparently I'm doing something wrong.


Also, Leo aside, now that he's dead my new guild is looking at Vashj. While I am well versed on the encounter from my past experiences in two other guilds, I'm confused as to my use in this fight. Of course I can pretend to heal, use blessing of freedom and cleanse poisons, toss the poison bolts back at Vashj's shield generators, but knowing that there will be 2-3 prot warriors in the raid, and 2 feral druids in the raid, I guess Im a little confused on what to do because I know that fight is all about getting as many DPS classes as you can get your hands on for phase 2, and I don't want to sit in Shat awaiting the news of my guild's next accomplishment without me.

Any help is appreciated.
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Postby Daeren » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:56 pm

Tank Vashj along with another warrior. We usually do that, and have the lst prot warrior either respec or just do some damage.

Leo, JotCrus + SoV 5 stacks + Judge the second he comes out is usually enough. I usually save the shield throw. But if you're uncertain on that it's enough, throw shield, then judge JoV. That's ALOT of threat right on.

Only times I lose aggro is when some tard lock just wanted to try to do that 3k shadowbolt or some hunter counting on MD working.
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Same here

Postby Ardneh » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:29 am

I have the same experience on Leo.

Cant seem to compete with our 2 MT warriors there when they start frontloading threat.

And for the response of how to take aggro on the nice lady... Horde blood knights dont have SoV, so no dot.

I would give an arm too keep a ticking threat after aggro reset, but unfortunately Horde paladins are suposed to have a hard time. At least the changes to fear ward will make it as difficult for paladins as for blood knights.
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Postby Maalev » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:48 am

I also had the same turn of thought recently when my guild took on Vashj for the first time. Unfortunately, I was not one of those present for the "first kill." I can tell you this, however, the time that I was present for the kill... tank the nagas with all you're worth. Between the naga tank in P2 and the "extra" tank on Vashj in P3 you're more than worth it.

Be sure to bless yourself with freedom whenever Vashj hits the melee with roots to make sure there is someone in melee range. If your guild is worth its salt, then you won't be the only one blessed with freedom, if not, then you save the day. Otherwise, there really isn't much you can contribute that some other class isn't already contributing.

It's hard to see a fight go by that I have nothing to do in, but I know that eventually the Shama/Rogue/Paladin population of my guild will run out of DKP and I can get in for the quick steal of the T5 helm.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:54 am

Vashj is actually an encounter that requires max 2 tanks, even 3 is loss of DPS. So don't be surprised if they decide to bring someone else.
If you want to get there, remind them that the 40 yd taunt and the 30 yd frontload aggro of Captain america shield will win at grabbing nagas before they annihilate your healers.

For Leotheras, when i still had AS (i don't actually), i used to start casting AS when it was missing 0.5 seconds to WW end, and right after, Judgement of Blood (yes, its better, more damage than JoR and cannot be resisted).
On our first kill there was me and a druid tanking Human Phase, often the druid got aggro off me, but i couldn't care less, since my job was preventing him to kill the healers or DPS after the WW/phase switch, not only "tanking". Now we use only me tanking in Human Phase, i don't even have AS anymore, but JoB is enough to have him sticked on me. Ah don't forget JoCr obviously.
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Postby Jarkeld » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:43 am

On leo we can grab him quicker than the warriors, but if they save their rage, they will just grab it off us, once we pull it to them. When our warrior MTed it, sometimes leo would kill a person before he could pick it up, never happened when I did it. If you're just throwing all your tanks at him(seems like you'll just end up taking a lot more damage), it's okay if a warrior pulls it off you, so long as you get the aggro first.
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Postby Lore » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:26 am

Don't expect to build better threat than your warriors if they're focusing on loading threat and you aren't, you have to up your threat as well. Leo doesn't hit hard, strap on some extra spell damage. Make sure you're using oils too.

Warriors can frontload quite a bit of threat, which usually can beat your AS if they get to Leo before Leo gets to you. That's not the reason we make awesome tanks for Leo, though. Our advantage is that we can basically stand in the middle of the room and pick him up from anywhere with only a couple steps. So if he decides to sprint across the room at the last second while your warriors are all moving in to hit him, you can still pick him up easily.

I like to have 3 tanks on Vashj, although with a Tankadin using 2 certainly isn't out of reach. Phase 1 is boring, if you're not MT'ing then just let the MT warrior do it and make sure he's getting BoF as much as possible when she does the entangling roots. Phase 2 our ranged aggro abilities are amazing for picking up the naga elites. On progression nights when your DPS might not be able to kill one elite before another spawns, I'd recommend picking them up and bringing them to the middle where your other tank grabs them off of you, so you can be ready to pick up the next one. At the P2->P3 transition, taunt any elites that are left off of him (our 3-target taunt is handy there) and hold them until DPS finishes them off.
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Postby Tiandelin » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:31 am

I stack as much spell damage as possible on Leo while remaining uncrittable and uncrushable. 4/5 T4, spell damage food, flask of supreme power, wizard oil, the works. If our ret pally isn't around, I keep JotC on him too. I wear a spell damage trinket and alternate between AW and the trinket on every demon->elf transition. As an added bonus, it makes killing your demon a trivial matter, even without using your wings.

As long as AS doesn't miss, I never have issues picking him up as long as everyone stops dps before whirlwind ends and on the transition. This is very important since it takes some time for him to get to you, during which you're not building aggro. Once he's on you and proccing holy shield like crazy, you should be able to hold him at least against non-tanks.

And yes, warriors and bear druids unloading full rage bars can pull him off you. Prot warriors wearing BV/dps gear who forget to switch out of defensive stance after the spellbinders are dead can also pull aggro, as our warrior MT discovered.

As for Vashj, my guild is still working on her too. However, as Worldie noted, ranged taunt and AS are awesome for picking up nagas, and blessing of freedom is almost essential in phases 1 and 3.
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Postby Akonda » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:44 pm

Daermon, you're not speaking my language. No SoV here :(

Lots of pointers I see from everyone that posted, and while they do help, some are obvious. And from the descriptions of your experiences with Leo, you don't have 4 tanks sweating him either when WW breaks.

I know if it was just me and maybe 1 warrior or druid it would be cake. I'd pick him up everytime, and I wouldn't care if I lost aggro as long as no healers died. But I found that since Leo never actually does much damage to me (I have the boss maybe 3 seconds after the 3 seconds he's running to me or Im re-positioning him) I take little damage, I get no heals, I chug mana pots. So I gave up and went holy gear.


Now, getting back to Vashj, specifically, she's tauntable or not? All I have to do is blessing of freedom in phase 1? Because I already know in my uncrushable gear I can't OT for shit. Consequently I'm torn trying to decide if I should spec holy for this or not.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:32 pm

She is tauntable. I usually taunt her should our Warrior MT get stunned (sometimes Grounding isnt quick enough).

For Leo, when i tank him, since i go for full spelldamage, i'm not uncrushable, and i'm not even uncrittable (484 def dhu), he still doesnt hurt a lot, but nothing a shadow priest cant fix :)
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Postby Akonda » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:42 pm

Next question...again about Vashj.

So now we've started wiping on Vashj, and my job is to play fetch with the Nagas so the healers don't get killed. I bring it to the center and let the MT have it, and if the MT is already tanking one, I hold it and wait.

First I was having trouble targetting when they came out. So I use /tar coilfang elite and push my taunt macro. Usually its aggro'd on one of the chain healers standing next to me in the center, taunt, no problem.

The problem comes when DPS falls short and a second naga comes out. I've given the first one to my MT, its still alive, now Im hunting for the other one. I click my target macro and it targets the one already being tanked. Basically Im looking to modify "/target coilfaing elite" to toggle between currently active multiple Nagas. Any help is appreciated, because its hard to see, much less target, through all the chaos.
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Postby Dreamcrusher » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:22 am

I had kind of the same problem, I just run around in circles and spam tab until I get one. =/
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Postby Cakes » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:13 am

Akonda wrote:Next question...again about Vashj.

So now we've started wiping on Vashj, and my job is to play fetch with the Nagas so the healers don't get killed. I bring it to the center and let the MT have it, and if the MT is already tanking one, I hold it and wait.

First I was having trouble targetting when they came out. So I use /tar coilfang elite and push my taunt macro. Usually its aggro'd on one of the chain healers standing next to me in the center, taunt, no problem.

The problem comes when DPS falls short and a second naga comes out. I've given the first one to my MT, its still alive, now Im hunting for the other one. I click my target macro and it targets the one already being tanked. Basically Im looking to modify "/target coilfaing elite" to toggle between currently active multiple Nagas. Any help is appreciated, because its hard to see, much less target, through all the chaos.


We have our stairs dps call our directions. I say "Naga incoming" on vent and one of our people responds with "Naga NW" or something similar. Phase 2 is controlled chaos, but once you work out the coordination kinks, you'll find the rest of the fight goes pretty fast.
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Postby Tiandelin » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:11 pm

Akonda wrote:Lots of pointers I see from everyone that posted, and while they do help, some are obvious. And from the descriptions of your experiences with Leo, you don't have 4 tanks sweating him either when WW breaks.

I know if it was just me and maybe 1 warrior or druid it would be cake. I'd pick him up everytime, and I wouldn't care if I lost aggro as long as no healers died. But I found that since Leo never actually does much damage to me (I have the boss maybe 3 seconds after the 3 seconds he's running to me or Im re-positioning him) I take little damage, I get no heals, I chug mana pots. So I gave up and went holy gear.


It sounds like they aren't giving you a chance to get firm aggro on him before unloading. If that's the case, they're doing it wrong. That or you need more spell damage, but if people are pulling aggro off the designated tank, the onus is on them to hold off a bit more anyway.

I solo tank the elf phase for the whole fight without many issues, and that's with four other "tanks" beating on him (we run sorta tank-heavy due to our guild composition). However, they aren't spamming shield slam and heroic strike the instant Leo jumps onto me as if they were trying to tank him themselves. I think that might be the issue there. They should try to avoid using high-aggro moves.

Akonda wrote:So now we've started wiping on Vashj, and my job is to play fetch with the Nagas so the healers don't get killed. I bring it to the center and let the MT have it, and if the MT is already tanking one, I hold it and wait.

First I was having trouble targetting when they came out. So I use /tar coilfang elite and push my taunt macro. Usually its aggro'd on one of the chain healers standing next to me in the center, taunt, no problem.

The problem comes when DPS falls short and a second naga comes out. I've given the first one to my MT, its still alive, now Im hunting for the other one. I click my target macro and it targets the one already being tanked. Basically Im looking to modify "/target coilfaing elite" to toggle between currently active multiple Nagas. Any help is appreciated, because its hard to see, much less target, through all the chaos.


I'll qualify this with the note that we don't have phase 2 entirely down yet (damn striders), but as far as naga control goes, we position the tanks around the top of the platform. We're spread out more or less evenly so that at least one of us can get to a newly spawned naga before it snacks on some hapless healer. Also, we're currently toying with the idea of designating one person as the naga tank and having the other tanks just bring nagas to him. Theoretically, this should help keep the process more organized since we won't have to shift tanks around.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:01 pm

Akonda wrote:Next question...again about Vashj.

So now we've started wiping on Vashj, and my job is to play fetch with the Nagas so the healers don't get killed. I bring it to the center and let the MT have it, and if the MT is already tanking one, I hold it and wait.

First I was having trouble targetting when they came out. So I use /tar coilfang elite and push my taunt macro. Usually its aggro'd on one of the chain healers standing next to me in the center, taunt, no problem.

The problem comes when DPS falls short and a second naga comes out. I've given the first one to my MT, its still alive, now Im hunting for the other one. I click my target macro and it targets the one already being tanked. Basically Im looking to modify "/target coilfaing elite" to toggle between currently active multiple Nagas. Any help is appreciated, because its hard to see, much less target, through all the chaos.

I'll tell you about how we do it.

First of all, the people that are at the Tainted spawns always tell from which direction Nagas or Striders are coming. Thats a HUGE help.
Second, i usually Taunt the Naga and tank it somewhere around the middle platform until the MT comes and taunts it off me. This for the first 3 nagas. He doesn't taunt the 4th off me, and when the 5th (and last) is going to come, all melee goes away from me, so i can move and taunt it. Then the MT grabs Vashj and brings her somewhere, while i tank the 2 nagas and ranged burn them down.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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