[10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

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Postby Neroth » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:32 am

+1 for the Tankspot videos. They are really excellent tools.

There is a big learning curve in Naxx on learning the fights. To me it is what makes it so fun. No two fights are the same and there just don't seem to be many pure tank and spank fights. Since none of us have seen Naxx before we are spending a fair amount of time learning each boss, but after we learn them we generally don't have too much trouble downing them.

We are currently 7/15, but hope to make a good bit more progress this weekend with 2 5hr blocks set up to run.
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Postby Senador » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:32 am

After how easy TBC was on DPS right before expansion, it seems to be a bit of a rude wake up call to several DPSers that they have to actually pay attention, function, spec and gear appropriately.

My guild has had some serious DPS issues recently. Enraging Patchwerk (multiple times before barely eking out the first kill at six minutes 5 seconds; Second kill was about 5 and a half minutes; both had Bloodlust). Loatheb dragging on until nearly 9 minutes, Maexxna getting off 3 Web Sprays after enrage, etc.

DPS actually matters now. While I like this, it puts a much larger responsibility on DPS pulling its weight than was there before. Just looking at the fights, and think how many are decent DPS checks (Maexxna, Gothik, Loatheb, Grob, Gluth etc) in addition to learning their mechanics and you can see why so many are having troubles.

Gearing appropriately is important too, as are rotations, and even ability uses. I’ve had to explain to several healers that Flash of Light, Flash Heal and Lesser Healing Wave are not appropriate spells for being the oly spell used for healing a tank in Naxx. The mobs hit hard, it’s alright to use the big boy heals… Gearing is another issue. I don’t know why so many cling to their old gear as much as they do. You’re 80, level 70 PVP epics aren’t very good for PVE. Hell for most of the S2/S3 early S4 junk it wasn’t that good at PVE at 70, let alone 10 levels later. Don’t waste the guilds time with “Well I’m 80 I can raid now, and don’t have to play this toon for anything but raids!” At least try and gear up. Get Hit, get badge items (25 badges is NOT hard with the number of 5 badge heroics out there now and Daily heroics existing).

I’m going to boot the next person in a Naxx raid that still has 70 epics, greens and I see “Achievement: Badge of Heroism!” after killing the first boss for the evening after being 80 for over a week…
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Re: [10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

Postby Kelaan » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:38 am

melkior wrote:-Razivious ; some people said that the students get healed to full between MC's. This did -NOT- happen for us. I had to heal Students in addition to the raid, and we ended up wiping every time because the student died. Yes they were using bone armor at 15 second intervals. Tanks who are MC'ing need lots of healing too (youd think they dont need any because they are just using a crystal). Does this dmg they receive scale with their gear?


In Naxx25, we wiped for 2 hours until our priests got the tanking thing down. Healing the students is very important; I found that while tnaking them, it was useful to buff each new student with Sanctuary and Sacred Shield. That seemed to help, strangely.

You bring up a good point. If you're NEW to the zone, you probably want your DPS and healers to have been running normal instances (and heroics) a bit. While fights like Heigan and the like don't seem like DPS checks, every bit helps. When 2/3 of your raid is dead, every bit of damage and every little trick you can use will help. We had several kills in Naxx25 last week which were skin-of-the-teeth close.
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Postby daemonym » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:02 pm

Amarant_Pally wrote:Just because people say it's "easy" does NOT mean:

1) You can have slackers ("improper" spec'ed people; wrong rotations)
2) You can be "under-geared" (more greens than blues)
3) Not know the fights (Bosskillers, anyone?)



this deserves emphasis in a big way. just because you -can- do something doesnt mean that you -should- do it. if your dps doesn't know what rotation to use, you won't be killing a damn thing before your healers are out of gas. if your tanks are in greens more than blues, fights won't last long enough for your dps that needs to l2p to matter. if you don't know wtf is going on in a fight, none of the above matter. if your group decided to raid naxx the night after 80 ya there's going to be loads of fail happening.

tl;dr?

raiding is like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.
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Postby Nalyn » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:10 pm

Naxx is easy if you've seen it before, it's not quite so easy if you've never done or seen the fights, or if you're stepping into the zone as a fresh 80, or not spec'ed for what you are trying to do.

The 10 man we got 4? bosses down on our first, tenative steps into the zone, on the first reset we went. The second week we sent one group again, and got everything down but the two big guys upstairs, and thaddius (the group had a hell of a time getting grobbulus down). Third week we have enough 80s to do two 10 mans, we clear the place, twice over, in 3 raid nights, however, it did take both groups more than a few tries to get sapphiron worked out, and a couple to get KT down.

We did our first 25 man naxx this last week, and got everything down but KT, the issues being what other people said. It took the priests more than a few tries to work out the MC's for instructor, 'discovering' that Anub'rekhan's locus swarm is MUCH bigger in 25 man then the 10 man, it took us several tries to get healing worked out for patchwerk's 25 man version, and it took us basically a whole night to get everyone to move 'right' (both correctly and to the right) for Thaddius, so everyone stayed up, and allowed us to meet the enrage timer.

However, most everyone having done the 10 man fights before doing the 25 man versions, we 2 shotted grand widow (MC issue again), one shotted Maxxenea, one shotted gothik, 2 shotted horsemen (ranged healer dc'ed), 1 shotted the entire plague wing, 1 shotted grobbulus and gluth, 2 shotted sapphiron (positioning changes for 25 people vs 10), and got KT to about 49% on both of the attempts we made at him.
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Postby Splug » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:13 pm

Senador wrote:I’m going to boot the next person in a Naxx raid that still has 70 epics, greens and I see “Achievement: Badge of Heroism!” after killing the first boss for the evening
Heh, I'm pretty sure my guild tag was the only reason my shaman didn't get lobbed out of that naxx10 run I was in when I did exactly that. Well... that and the fact that I actually wasn't last on healing.

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Postby Spectrum » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:27 pm

I've been amazed at how bad a lot of DPS has been able to be. For example, I have friends who 80 and were doing 1800 DPS right away, and now are solidly over 2k in a 10-man group.

On the other hand. In PUGs I regularly see DPS that's doing only 1200. Sometimes it seems like people just need a little more time to gear up (didn't pick up enough gear while leveling), or sometimes they just need a clue.

Ultimately the fact is that everyone in Naxx needs to pay attention, know the fight, and know their class. If they do that you'll be fine.

I love the guides that note that you should have a total of 14000 DPS for such-and-such a boss. That means an average of 2300 DPS among 6 DPSers (less due to tank DPS). The random people I've seen are no where near that, but breaking 2k doesn't seem very hard to do if you know what you're doing.
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Postby dmok » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:39 pm

Neroth wrote:We are currently 7/15, but hope to make a good bit more progress this weekend with 2 5hr blocks set up to run.

Honestly, it always suprises me to find guilds that are willing to put a solid 5hr chunk of time into raiding. I think my guild averages about 2.5 hours before attention spans begin to wane ...

Granted it still got us to Illidan in TBC (killed the monday before LK) , and so far it's gotten us 3 full wings clear in 2 nights in Naxx.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:41 pm

DPS is a huge issue in the expansion. I'm not sure that our other 10-man group has killed Sapphiron and KT yet just because their DPS is so poor. Their healing is quite good, but they just haven't figured out how to DPS with the 3.0/wrath changes. It also doesn't help that some of them are still wearing full suits of tier 6.

After seeing some people discussing DPS, I mentioned in guild chat that any DPS class can break 2700 DPS at 80 and I had a warlock berate me for being elitist. I told him that I'd be willing to help any DPS that wanted to improve, but he took it as a personal attack. Later that night (I think) we're half-guild/half-pugging a 25-man Naxx and, what do you know, all of the good players are breaking 3000 DPS with little issue. I so wish that player had been there, but he was with the 10-man group that wanted to finish their 4th wing (and I don't know if they did) instead of getting 25-man gear.

It's really sad seeing players that used to be top DPS not bothering to figure out how their class works at 80. All I had to do was navigate to the class forums at EJ and I had all the info I needed for maximizing my alt's DPS when I get him to 80. And I'm going to do just that, just to show that warlock that I can out-DPS him as a fresh 80 warlock.
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Postby ARogers » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:51 pm

I am so glad they've made it like this for DPS. I hated how I spent many normal runs in BC just to get to enough life and def to tank Kara and heroics. The DPS could go in and just do enough to make it. Now, look at heroics even like UP. I've failed with a group so many times at UP because a stupid DPS can't stay out of the fire long enough to make it to Skadi.

DPS should have to mindless heroics like myself to get geared. I was the opposite of most on Naxx. I didn't step into Naxx until last night. I went in with 26.4k unbuffed life for the first time. I just chainpulled everything. If the DPS did the same, you could go in and clear the place out in 1 night very very quickly.

If you get people actually geared and running in, 5 hours would be unheard of. You wouldn't spend that long in the whole place. We were getting from boss to boss like Heroic SP was back in BC.
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Postby melkior » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:17 pm

Well our guild has been pushing 80 instance and heroic runs since saturday for gearing up.

I ran w/ one of the DK's who was with us in Nax , we were doing heroic Strat. He was around 1300 DPS so I posted the Recount data and showed him the only person he was competitive with was the healer and could he pick it up?

So I reset the meters and on the last boss he actually came in #1.

Amazing what a little data and a push can do huh?
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Postby Jobah » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:08 am

heh, first time i did naxx10 was in a pug with ppl in blues and greens. We just invited anyone as long as they at least geared their char correctly, we didnt so much care about how purple they were.... and yeah, we cleared the entire military wing and part of the plague wing...

Noth is easy mode, Haegen is easy mode, that first boss in military is easy mode (you could seriously kill him with half your raid naked).

I will say this though. If you never familiarized yourself with the bosses, its gonna seem a whole lot harder. Read the bosses, watch the videos, study the fights before you do them. Have solid strategies formed before you go in there and then tweek them a little bit based on how you're wiping. Even in crappy gear, im very confident you can down bosses based on sheer strategy.

In terms of difficulty (in my opinion)

Spider -
Plague (last boss is easy if u have a priest)
Military (4horse takes some practice)

Construct (these fights are all very dps dependant). And techniquely, if you can beat patchwerks enrage timer then you should have good enough dps for the rest of the wing, but yeah, grob has given my guild some trouble.

Just bring hunters would be my advice, they seem to be owning the dps meters lately.
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Postby tinalt » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:19 am

I'm noticing at least in my guild a lot of the dps (and to a lesser extent our healers) were not expecting to work as hard as they have to. They are used to being carried by epic gear and not playing their character like they should. not scpecing right or using their rotations properly.

I hate knowing that we are going to have to gear up our raid simply to get them to a level that they should be capable of reaching right now in blues.

mages out dps'd by tanks are fail. healers below me because of JoL are fail.

that being said, once your raid has seen the fights a few times you will be able to blow through the place and you'll wonder why you guys were ever wiping. then you'll be one of the ones saying naxx is easy.
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Re: [10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

Postby Belarkan » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:20 am

melkior wrote:- I personally feel the people who are saying its so easy are those who were very hardcore raiders. This feels easy to them. Indeed it *is* easy *to them*.


Well, from what I've seen from nax (4 wings cleaned) is that you don't have to be top geared to do them in this they are easy.
However, the raid has to know what and when to do things.
I mean, my general feeling on most of the bosses is that player >> gear.
You'll wipe on some bosses with better gear if the players don't react.

melkior wrote:-Most of our DPS people rushed to 80, then logged off and started leveling alts. Guess how good their DPS was in Naxx? Our downing of 0 bosses should clue you in.


Well, this is especially true if they even didn't care trading their 70 epic against 80 blues.
DPS is important and will help.

- Razivious ; have your MC'd students stand FAR away to tank Raz. The time it takes people to re-MC is long enough they will get 1-shot killed if there not far enough away.


students MC are fast enough they aren't much an issue. Players need to react fast and non melee dps should be far from the boss anyway.

-Razivious ; some people said that the students get healed to full between MC's. This did -NOT- happen for us. I had to heal Students in addition to the raid, and we ended up wiping every time because the student died. Yes they were using bone armor at 15 second intervals. Tanks who are MC'ing need lots of healing too (youd think they dont need any because they are just using a crystal). Does this dmg they receive scale with their gear?


students weren't healed between MC's. They require really heavy healing.

-Anub'Rekhan our Pally OT had a hard time with scarabs when he was standing ON the corpses. He had to stand between the corpse and the healers .. then consecrate as the DBM announcement came to catch -most- of them.


Just taunt the scarabs off the priests. I don't even consecrate, it's useless, I rather taunt off healers, by armor order.
Off tank duty is the elite adds that spawn, scarabs' are dps duty.

- Anub'Rekhan ; our warrior MT tried with and without intervene -- intervene was vastly superior. It also helped make sure that a healer did not get silenced trying to keep him topped as he ran around the circle.


You have to intervene during anub'rekhan ?
Just let the healer and ranged dps as far as possible from the boss, they won't get silenced as long as you tank the boss in the middle, the silence area is around the green circle.

Firstly I'm not hardcore raider, and I barely tapped into 25 man raiding. I did however tank deep into ZulAman with people who were geared in only Kara & Heroic gear. We were about 2 minutes off getting the 4th chest. Never did get it though. People said you had to have full T6 to get it -- I thought our team was tight enough we might have eventually gotten it without that gear. Hard to say.


We've been into hyjal and BT but we couldn't get around 2 minutes for the ZA timer.
My guild is mostly a mixture ranging from bad to good players and it didn't prevent us to clean the 4 wings and we do raid 3 night per week (3h)

I had hoped Naxx was "do able" at this point for my guild ... I'd say with 1-2 more weeks of gearing up its possible we may take down our first boss. Well try again this coming weekend but its really hard to say if our DPS will improve by 50% in one week.

Good luck and dont give up hope on Nax if your in 10 man and a small guild trying to see some of that content you never got to see, I think it can be done; but you will have to work for it.


Honestly, I'm not convinced you have to be hard core gamer to clean naxx. Of course it will help but most of the encounter of spider, plague and military wings are doable in blues (which is what we did and we aren't an hardcore guild).
You just need to have aware players that can react and hold their role and it'll should be all fine.
We manage almost every bosses with 3 tries, grob and 4 horsemen took us more time.

Edit:

If you haven't been in 25 men during BC, you'll probably haven't seen much encounters that involves all the raid such as naxx does.
Last edited by Belarkan on Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Andox » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:55 am

Well, if you have that hard time in [10]Naxx you are doign something wrong tbh. We went in there with nine people and cleared Spider, only wipes were on Maexxna because we had a bad position there so webbed ppl died.

Then we went on in Abomination wing, got our newly dinged (like 10 min before invite) resto shaman in and oneshot patchwerk. We then do Gluth on our second try, and Thaddius get down on second aswell when people got the switch side thingy.

Sadly, we ran out of time, since we did OS before aswell and it was a laggy night. But the next reset we cleared all of it. OS, Naxx and Malygos. We are nowhere hardcore raiders, we raid three times per week, so the people who claim the 10mans to be hard, well, are doing something wrong, or to be more clear, the DPS are doing something wrong if they fail to down the bosses.

Only done Spiderwing and OS as 25man tho, so I can't really comment that. But Spider was as easy, if not easier in 25man since you could do the setup more freely and get more buffs/debuffs. All I can say is that T7 raiding content is very very easy. I hope Ulduar is way harder, this isn't even funny, it's like getting free loot fro mevery boss :wink:
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