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[10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

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[10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

Postby melkior » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Greetings,

I wanted to write up some information for those people who keep coming here posting & reading .. wondering if your guild is ready for 10 man Naxx.

Given the buzz in the official WoW forums .. and even here a little bit. You'd be under the impression people can 'easily' walk into Naxx in blues and greens and clear most of the place out.

Well my guild walked into Naxx in mostly blues, a few epics, and yes 1-2 greens here and there Saturday the 13th, and we downed exactly 0 bosses 5 and a half hours later.

I feel fairly confident that I know the reasons why in retrospect. Thats what this post is about. If your heading to Naxx for the first time it is indeed challenging.

So heres some random thoughts:

- I personally feel the people who are saying its so easy are those who were very hardcore raiders. This feels easy to them. Indeed it *is* easy *to them*.

-There are lots of really good advice threads and videos that go a long way towards learning what to do. NONE of them are substitute for being there as a guild and learning the fight first person. They can help gentle the curve though.

-Most of our DPS people rushed to 80, then logged off and started leveling alts. Guess how good their DPS was in Naxx? Our downing of 0 bosses should clue you in.

-Both tanks had 540 defense (they took their job seriously) and while I was also a 540 tank I respec'd holy to heal since we were short 1 healer. I had a really good healing set and came in #2 in heals most fights alternating with the Priest or Shaman being #1. AKA all 3 healers were extremely competitive.

Things I learned:

- DPS matters a lot more than I figured. Our fights were running about as long as they should have for normal take downs, but the boss would end up at 50% instead of dead.

- Razivious ; have your MC'd students stand FAR away to tank Raz. The time it takes people to re-MC is long enough they will get 1-shot killed if there not far enough away.

-Razivious ; some people said that the students get healed to full between MC's. This did -NOT- happen for us. I had to heal Students in addition to the raid, and we ended up wiping every time because the student died. Yes they were using bone armor at 15 second intervals. Tanks who are MC'ing need lots of healing too (youd think they dont need any because they are just using a crystal). Does this dmg they receive scale with their gear?

-Anub'Rekhan our Pally OT had a hard time with scarabs when he was standing ON the corpses. He had to stand between the corpse and the healers .. then consecrate as the DBM announcement came to catch -most- of them.

- Anub'Rekhan ; our warrior MT tried with and without intervene -- intervene was vastly superior. It also helped make sure that a healer did not get silenced trying to keep him topped as he ran around the circle.


I'll try to return and post responses and more info as I think of it; in the meantime in closing a few comments.

Firstly I'm not hardcore raider, and I barely tapped into 25 man raiding. I did however tank deep into ZulAman with people who were geared in only Kara & Heroic gear. We were about 2 minutes off getting the 4th chest. Never did get it though. People said you had to have full T6 to get it -- I thought our team was tight enough we might have eventually gotten it without that gear. Hard to say.

I'm really happy Blizz is making 10 mans of every dungeon, and I hope to experience Wrath in 10 man flavor only. I have no desire to go to 25 man raiding -- its too much commitment - like a full time job.

I had hoped Naxx was "do able" at this point for my guild ... I'd say with 1-2 more weeks of gearing up its possible we may take down our first boss. Well try again this coming weekend but its really hard to say if our DPS will improve by 50% in one week.

Good luck and dont give up hope on Nax if your in 10 man and a small guild trying to see some of that content you never got to see, I think it can be done; but you will have to work for it.
Last edited by melkior on Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ewige » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:08 pm

Ouch, that sounds painful indeed. I hope your guild is not disheartened from wiping! To me this sounds like a normal learning curve combined with undergeared/lazy DPS issue. Don't be afraid to call people out on subpar dps, it's probably one of the easier factors to remedy through heroics/badges and proper rotation.

As far as I know with the MC crystals, no, they don't get healed automatically; your healers must heal them. Raz does a random knife throw, iirc, so you must heal the raid/MC tanks.

For Anub, hunters/mages help here a lot. We usually either drop a trap or have a mage stationed to frostnova. Since we always have at least one I don't know what else you can try. Maybe switch tanks so warrior can thunderclap?
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Postby Chunes » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:10 pm

yeah DPS is important in naxx, you are certainly correct on that.

not many of the bosses will "hard enrage", although many of them have built in "soft enrages" that require at least a certain level of healing/dps/tank gear.

the good thing is that gearing your DPS is not hard. When we ran in, most of our DPS was in quest blues and perhaps a few craftable epics, we managed to clear naxx10 w/in 2 weeks of most of us hitting 80 and we're not different than you other than we might be a little more disciplined on our execution, specs and spell rotations.

onthat note, you'd be surprised how much dps you can increase by requiring people to follow "generally accepted as best for PvE raiding" specs, AKA cookie cutter specs. knowing how to maximize rotations in said cookie cutter specs helps too.

Beyond that, just practice the fights and you'll start downing bosses.
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Postby Mikasha » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:11 pm

This sounds more like a failure of the people in your guild to get themselves up to par (gear wise) than it is about difficulty. Naxx can be as hard as you let it be, by being unprepared and sorely geared.
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Postby Splug » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:20 pm

I actually ran Naxx on my shaman yesterday afternoon - I jumped in the queue soon as I hit 80, and respec'd resto for the group I was invited to (litterally, according to /played) 3 minutes later. Razuvius actually does take some fairly coordinated healing from what I saw, and was the hardest encounter we ran. But for the most part the dungeon is Karazhan. It'll be hard when you first bring a full crew of fresh 80's in. But a few people coming in who have already played with it a bit, or one to two that are fully outfitted from Naxx or later, and the whole thing turns into a joke. The sudden lurch in itemvalue you gain from just killing a few bosses makes a huge difference by the end of the run.

Also, knowing the fights in advance helps a lot. It makes a big difference whether you bring in a group of people who saw lv 60 Naxx, even at 70, or people who are completely unexposed to the encounters. Those of us who saw a rehashed dungeon had almost no learning time; the place started on farm. Progression work is largely going through the motions of becoming familiar with the encounters, and partially catching up on equipment. If you don't have a large number of players who have already gone through that phase, it is going to be a bit difficult for them. It's tuned easy enough that you don't have to be perfect with the strategies, but players who don't know them at all do need to at least learn what they're aiming for.

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Postby melkior » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:42 pm

Mikasha wrote:This sounds more like a failure of the people in your guild to get themselves up to par (gear wise) than it is about difficulty. Naxx can be as hard as you let it be, by being unprepared and sorely geared.


Yep you bet, failure to gear to the content level.
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Postby Ret » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:49 pm

I went in there on saturday with a group of new 80's, except myself, who is geared with all heroic/10man/25 man tank gear, and 2 of my healers who are as well geared as me. We couldnt kill anub, we ended up spending 3 hours in there and only killed noth. On a few of the gargoyle pulls it took 5 regens to kill. At the end of the 3 hours I posted the damage meters, I was leading, with a DK almost tied with me, and everyone else way behind.

I think I proved with that group that you cant simply get 80 and join Naxx if you're a DPS.
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Postby Omatre » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:51 pm

Naxx is all about knowing the fights.

If you did Naxx 1.0, you can go in no problem.
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Postby amh » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:03 pm

That's a big if
I used to play a paladin.
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Postby Spectrum » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:39 pm

Personally, I loved how much DPS matters in Naxx and in Wrath in general. Back before BC there were almost no enrage timers and your DPS could be terrible as long as your tanks and healers kept going indefinitely. There really wasn't much to do as DPS but nuke the boss and occasionally kill adds. In Wrath they've made DPS matter a lot more. I like it, because it means everyone has to contribute. Maybe I'm just envious though.

I went into Naxx over the weekend with a PUG. Never met most of them before. It started out with 7 from their guild, 3 PUGs, but six hours later we had 4 guild and 6 PUG (I was not in the guild). Most of the fights weren't really about gear throughput, but about knowing what the heck was going on and being able to put enough DPS in the right spot at the right time (we didn't do Patchwerk). We finished the spider wing, two out of the miliary quarter, and the first guy out of the plague quarter. Most of it was pretty easy. We wiped at least once on half the bosses we tried, but there were only two we wiped more than once on (Maexxna and 4HM).

I feel like the place really is easy if you have a group that's good at improvising and learning the fights. Many of them are technical rather than gear dependent. Reading up on strats on WoWWiki before hand helped a lot too. I think I had them convinced I had actually been there before.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:15 pm

Omatre wrote:Naxx is all about knowing the fights.

If you did Naxx 1.0, you can go in no problem.


Not required, we went in not knowing anything past Anub & Instructor and cleared it out in two nights, first time in.

Just sounds like people were grotesquely unprepared. "Ding, 80" is where you start prepping for raids, not finished.
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Re: [10]Naxxramas - Not as Easy as you may have heard..

Postby samsara » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:37 am

melkior wrote:Things I learned:

- DPS matters a lot more than I figured. Our fights were running about as long as they should have for normal take downs, but the boss would end up at 50% instead of dead.



Hm, the first time i ran through naxx, the dd's did about 1,5k-2,3k dps, thats not that much.


melkior wrote:- Razivious ; have your MC'd students stand FAR away to tank Raz. The time it takes people to re-MC is long enough they will get 1-shot killed if there not far enough away.


Use Focustarget and break MC. After your Boneshield runs out, just move the MC'd Tank a bit away. Free the mob, Press your shortcut to Target your focused mob and klick on the MC-Thing. The mob will not be free long enough to do anything.

melkior wrote:-Razivious ; some people said that the students get healed to full between MC's. This did -NOT- happen for us. I had to heal Students in addition to the raid, and we ended up wiping every time because the student died. Yes they were using bone armor at 15 second intervals. Tanks who are MC'ing need lots of healing too (youd think they dont need any because they are just using a crystal). Does this dmg they receive scale with their gear?

the dmg they receive has nothing to do with gear. But you can for example buff them with kings XD. Another thing is that REALY only a MC'd mob WITH BONESHIELD should tank. If the boneshield fades let the other tank spot. We also found out that it's easier to just heal allways the tank who is not tanking at the moment. Sounds weired but the fight went much more easy.


melkior wrote:-Anub'Rekhan our Pally OT had a hard time with scarabs when he was standing ON the corpses. He had to stand between the corpse and the healers .. then consecrate as the DBM announcement came to catch -most- of them.

Put a mage next to the Pally for Frostnova. The little things are faster than the consceration can tick sometimes. ;)

melkior wrote:- Anub'Rekhan ; our warrior MT tried with and without intervene -- intervene was vastly superior. It also helped make sure that a healer did not get silenced trying to keep him topped as he ran around the circle.
[/qoute]
Healers should never get silenced in this fight. If they do their positioning is crap. It's not that hard.


melkior wrote:I'm really happy Blizz is making 10 mans of every dungeon, and I hope to experience Wrath in 10 man flavor only. I have no desire to go to 25 man raiding -- its too much commitment - like a full time job.

Same for me as i decided not to play as much wow as i used to :) 10 mans are a great thing.

[quote="melkior"]
I had hoped Naxx was "do able" at this point for my guild ... I'd say with 1-2 more weeks of gearing up its possible we may take down our first boss. Well try again this coming weekend but its really hard to say if our DPS will improve by 50% in one week.
[qoute]
The first few Bosses in Naxx is definitly doable with fresh 80's who know their class and are not tired. It's just a little harder.


I'm sure you will down a few very soon ;) Good Luck and HAVE FUN.

:) Heigan will be Fun
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:02 am

Naxxramas is easy when you follow the tactics.
And it IS an easy instance as far as raids go, but should only bring serious people and if your dps started levelling alts as soon as they dinged 80 they are not.

Hard raid instances are hard even with the best gear available and top of the line consumables. Easy instances are easy with the right gear, otherwise not.

And I dont know about you guys, but when I dinged 80 I had 3 BC items, 0 greens and I had mostly 2.4 badge gear and MH/BT gear when I started so its not like I had that big a headstart when we started Naxx.
Not being hardcore doesnt mean you have to be retarded or a slacker. You can easily get blues crafted with the money youve earned levelling up of from dailies at 80 without breaking your back.

There is no excuse for not gearing up for content, regardless.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:23 am

Agreeing with a few earlier comments and extending with my own...

Just because people say it's "easy" does NOT mean:

1) You can have slackers ("improper" spec'ed people; wrong rotations)
2) You can be "under-geared" (more greens than blues)
3) Not know the fights (Bosskillers, anyone?)

On my server, we just had our second Horde guild clear Naxx25 tonight. Pre-WotLK, they couldn't even get past RoS/BB/Gorefiend in a single raid week (pre-3.0...they got Illy afterward).

Naxx is EEEEE-Z.
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Postby Rhiannon » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

One thing I can't recommend enough if you're learning Naxx is the videos over at tankspot. They explain a lot of the fights in very simple terms, and if you get your raid to watch them, even if they're not decked out in particularly good gear, they should get a much clearer picture of what the fight's about, and so should spend less time umming and ahhing when they could be applying damage.
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