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Easy fixes I think would help us

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Easy fixes I think would help us

Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:13 am

I've been thinking about this for a while and it's something I believe is an easy fix that would give us more utility.

1) make vengeance work on every mob including bosses
2) give all pally's SoV or at least fix SoB so it doesn't suck (I'd like to see a vid from any other BE pally that can use SoB effectively and how they do it. I can't sustain more than 500 tps with it if I'm fighting warriors on VR for threat. I'd almost rather blow through mana pots mashing SoR and Consencrate... at least I can hit 600-700tps that way)
3) make arcane torrent an actual interrupt of sorts (that works on bosses) and in the talent tree
4) increase sacred duty's stam buff from 3/6 to 7/15
5) reduce the cost/cd of avenger shield by a lot or turn it into a "holy barrier" (eg. a shield wall type of deal, don't have to make it as good) or increase the percentages of ardent defender (eg. 40% under 40% instead of 35/30)

thoughts? suggestions?
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:45 am

Your list fails to amaze me.

1. I am not too worried about this.
2. I don't think Seal of Vengeance is all that hawt.
3. No I like my racials to stay racial please.
4. Stamina is good, but there are other ways to increase effective health.
5. Again interesting but why?

If you really want to impress, speak about why these changes would be good.
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Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:25 am

Vanifae wrote:Your list fails to amaze me.

1. I am not too worried about this.
2. I don't think Seal of Vengeance is all that hawt.
3. No I like my racials to stay racial please.
4. Stamina is good, but there are other ways to increase effective health.
5. Again interesting but why?

If you really want to impress, speak about why these changes would be good.


I thought the list would speak for itself but I guess I was wrong. so here goes:

warrior tanks are chosen because they have many more functional tanking abilities. (eg. demo shout, t clap, shield wall, last stand, much more health, etc)

let me be clear, I personally don't want to be "better" than a warrior tank, it's that I would like to be seen as a equal to them.

1) do we have anything that's even remotely close to t. clap or demo shout or even sunder armor? no
2) SoV seems to be (at least once they get it fixed) a much better choice for threat generation than SoB. can anyone honestly tell me that even in it's current state SoB is better? mainly because trying to build second threat on a target is insanely difficult without chugging mana pots and not getting hit. so a lot of the time it's MT or bust
3) it doesn't have to be arcane torrent, but we have nothing on a warrior's "spell reflect" or shield bash no interrupts that work on bosses at all and 90% of the time, mobs are immune to arcane torrent. I took it off my bar I was so sick of seeing "resist" or "immune" when I used it.
4) can we please close the health gap... even just a little, we have enough downfalls already
5) the "reduce cost/cd on avenger shield" I'll go into a little further. basically I'd like to see it as a shield bash of sorts. would be nice to have an interrupt. the other suggestions basically tie into #4 and are pretty self explanatory. basically by upping ardent defender we can greatly decrease death due to spike damage. in it's current form, it more than likely gets jumped over. if you're raid buffed at 16.5k health, AD kicks in at under 5775. let's say the next hit you'll take is coming in at 5k dmg (and for the sake of saving argument, let's just call it a bad string of hits and a lot of healers in the raid are down. AD mitigates 1.5k dmg and you take 3.5k taking your total down to 2275 and basically you're going to be mince meat if you're healers don't get to you. I mean seriously, a normal hit from mag can get you for upwards to 10k damage. A warrior can blow SW and LS and wait for a bit for the healers to catch up. us? well, we pray for a miracle.

I would just like to be able to not have to hope for something good to happen during fights and be able to have a real panic button. just one.
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:58 am

Druids don't have a spell reflect either.

We don't need all the tools a warrior has, we just need effective tools.

Seal of Blood is a Retribution skill, it can work with tanking but it's primary purpose is damage. So no I am not too worried if the skills are different.
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Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:15 am

Vanifae wrote:Druids don't have a spell reflect either.


are you serious? this thread had nothing to do with druid tanking

Vanifae wrote:We don't need all the tools a warrior has, we just need effective tools.


pretty sure I said that I didn't want us to be better than a warrior tank, but equal to. It's not right when there's only one class that can effectively tank endgame bosses. and furthermore, druid tanks need buffed a little also.

Vanifae wrote:Seal of Blood is a Retribution skill, it can work with tanking but it's primary purpose is damage. So no I am not too worried if the skills are different.


what does that have to do with OT threat generation? it being a ret skill has nothing to do with my point about SoV being vastly better than SoB. I'm also pretty sure tankadins aren't too worried about the damage they do. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

I would've expected a veteran member of these forums to be a little more open when a relative nub poster comes in here looking to start what I thought was a relevant discussion about our short comings and ways to fix them easily. Not having said veteran degrade my post then when I post a response further blow it off with irrelevant statements.
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Postby Teah » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:30 am

LoH is an awesome panic button... the only problem with it is the cooldown.

It would be nice to have a shield wall or last stand type ability but AS is useful in it's current state. AS is basically a ranged shield slam and since Judgement isn't on the GCD I can shield slam twice before the mob hits me. Every fight.

Any fight where picking up a boss is a hassle AS helps out a ton.
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:54 am

This is about tanking. Druids are a viable tanking member, to state they don't have a given skill is a viable and logical retort. It means that Blizzard does not intend for every tanking class to have every tool available. Now I do admit that warriors have all the pretty tools, they were the first tanking class, but that is slowly changing.

So yes Druids don't have a spell reflect and that is a viable statement.

I agree it isn't right, and hopefully changes will come to bring the disparity more in line, and reduce it to 0.

Now why do I resist the change to give Horde Seal of Vengeance? Because you can use Seal of Righteousness as a Blood Elf and do quite well, I know that for a fact. So yes does it suck that one racial paladin ability is better for tanking then another, sure; but I don't think every ability we have is a viable tanking tool. Leave Seal of Blood alone, it really isn't a tanking tool, sure you can use it with a tanking weapon for good damage but it really gets subpar as your spell damage increases.

Now for Retribution it does nice consistent damage.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:58 am

Teah wrote:AS is basically a ranged shield slam and since Judgement isn't on the GCD I can shield slam twice before the mob hits me. Every fight.


You lost me here, what exactly are you doing?
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Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:30 am

Teah wrote:LoH is an awesome panic button... the only problem with it is the cooldown.

It would be nice to have a shield wall or last stand type ability but AS is useful in it's current state. AS is basically a ranged shield slam and since Judgement isn't on the GCD I can shield slam twice before the mob hits me. Every fight.

Any fight where picking up a boss is a hassle AS helps out a ton.


/agree Fridmarr

I might have missed something, but are bosses vunerable to daze effects? if so, then daze effects interrupt spell cast?

how are you getting off a spell twice that has a 30 second cd before a mob hits you?

Avenger Shield is nothing close to shield slam, ever.

I'm going to assume, there's a mistype in there somewhere.
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Postby Anubisknight » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:33 am

Nerra wrote:
Teah wrote:LoH is an awesome panic button... the only problem with it is the cooldown.

It would be nice to have a shield wall or last stand type ability but AS is useful in it's current state. AS is basically a ranged shield slam and since Judgement isn't on the GCD I can shield slam twice before the mob hits me. Every fight.

Any fight where picking up a boss is a hassle AS helps out a ton.


/agree Fridmarr

I might have missed something, but are bosses vunerable to daze effects? if so, then daze effects interrupt spell cast?

how are you getting off a spell twice that has a 30 second cd before a mob hits you?

Avenger Shield is nothing close to shield slam, ever.

I'm going to assume, there's a mistype in there somewhere.


I'm guessing he (or she??) means 1 AS + 1 judgement = 2 shield slams.
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Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:55 am

Anubisknight wrote:I'm guessing he (or she??) means 1 AS + 1 judgement = 2 shield slams.


I mistyped. I meant shield "bash" not "slam" originally.

the interrupt ability of shield bash is invaluable. shield slam still has more utility than AS and it's only on a 6 second cd. Shield bash is on a 12 second cd. AS on a 30 sec cd.

I think Teah was talking about the threat generation of shield slam and yes, off the bat, AS + a judgment will create more threat, but over the course of a fight SS will create much more threat.

honestly though, how often does anyone stop attacking mid fight to throw a AS that is on a 1 second cast timer and costs (for most tankadins) almost 1/4 of our total mana pool. I know I don't.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:21 am

Don't underestimate Judgement of Blood, a "cannot miss" skill is quite useful sometimes.
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Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:46 am

I'm not exactly sure how this got so off topic so quick... but I'm not talking about sob's damage usefulness, I'm talking about it's aggro generation vs seal of vengeance.

and I really didn't want this to become a SoB vs SoV discussion either because I'm pretty sure there are enough threads about it already, I was really just looking for either:

"/agree and here's some more suggestions/ways to improve yours"

or

"/disagree and here's why"
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Postby Nerra » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:47 am

I'm not exactly sure how this got so off topic so quick... but I'm not talking about sob's damage usefulness, I'm talking about it's threat generation vs seal of vengeance.

and I really didn't want this to become a SoB vs SoV discussion either because I'm pretty sure there are enough threads about it already, I was really just looking for either:

"/agree and here's some more suggestions/ways to improve yours"

or

"/disagree and here's why"
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Postby Glam » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:40 pm

Nerra -
One of the things that I have noticed on these forums is that many of the people that post here have previously tanked as Warriors (I don't happen to be one - btw). As a result, many have found that they enjoy tanking more as a Paladin than as a Warrior. This then leads to people not wanting Paladin tanks to be a clone of Warriors (of which I happen to agree).
You will find that a number of people on these forums will resist any comparison to Warriors. I hope this helps you and that you have not been dissuaded from posting here as well as enjoying the beneficial knowledge of this site.
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