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[25] Make Quick Werk of Him (Achievement)

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Postby Joanadark » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:18 am

All that blather about how "skilled players of whatever class should be close enough together in performance that class doesnt matter on who is topping damage" was SUCH bullshit.

Ret Paladins do not scale. At ALL.
Even on a perfect 3 minute fight length, I cannot find a ret paladin parse breaking 5k DPS. Yet I CAN find ones faaaaar exceeding that for mages, warlocks, rogues, warriors, dks, etc....

Thank you for balancing my class around level 70 BGs. No really, thanks.
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Postby Splug » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:28 am

Eh, the balancing game is an iterative process. Whether they've got it right now or not is another matter, but they've said it's the intended goal. Take a look at hunters - they're one of the top damage classes (without diving at broken talents like honor among thieves) and most of their core abilities are getting gutted pretty badly. The status quo is subject to change monthly; you can pick a horse to ride, and sometimes it'll be the right one, sometimes it'll be the wrong one.

Ret paladins won the dice roll to be the overpowered class at 70. This iteration, they may well have lost it. What 3.x shows is anyone's guess. It's also possible that due to retribution being a lower damage spec in 2.4, fewer guilds use them, and thus there are less to produce the results you're looking for. Or maybe they're just not being fed Hysteria chains on an IV, like warriors occasionally are.

... And I really doubt 6k-7k dps classes are intended at this point. That's either an error in balancing, or a straight up code error like HAT.

-Splug

EDIT: Also found this little tidbit posted on the mmo-champion unofficial PTR notes:
Vengeance now stacks up to 5 times. (Up from 3)
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Postby Pala » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:34 pm

Joanadark wrote:I'm fairly sure I've seen you around before, as I make a point of inspecting and emoting any prot paladins I see. You arent the one who was sitting at the Naxx summoning stone today who kept flagging up and hitting us with Hammer of the Righteous were you?


No, I haven't gone near Naxx at all. I'm waiting for some more healers to level up and gear up. Then we're going in there to die a lot. Should be fun!
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:21 pm

We got that this week:

http://wowwebstats.com/4xhvqld56fat1?s=222549-263138

2:50 with 5 healers, we took 3 HaT rogues but as you can see only one of them knew how to properly abuse the spec :lol:
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Postby Cakes » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:07 am

Splug wrote:Ret paladins won the dice roll to be the overpowered class at 70. This iteration, they may well have lost it. What 3.x shows is anyone's guess. It's also possible that due to retribution being a lower damage spec in 2.4, fewer guilds use them, and thus there are less to produce the results you're looking for. Or maybe they're just not being fed Hysteria chains on an IV, like warriors occasionally are.

-Splug


The problem that I have with that Splug, that while iterative, the process should not be pendular in nature. The fact that a class can go from brokenly overpowered to severely undertuned in the span of ten levels is shortsighted at best. It's even more irritating when they explicity said that retuning ret was not because of public outcry about getting destroyed by ret pallies in battlegrounds, but that they were simply doing too much damage both at 70 and 80. How? When? I'd love to see this mystical fabled font of data, but the vast majority of stuff that I saw from Beta Naxx showed Ret pallies right where they are now.

I feel even worse for rogues, who aren't getting the attention they should be due to bugged mechanics working in their favor for the short term.

Edit: Back on topic, anyone else have melee sort of "randomly" die on this fight still while using 2 tanks? I think our last kill we just had one sneak in too early and he ended up taking a hateful about 3 seconds into the fight, while everyone else lived.
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:56 am

Do you mean 2 OTs or 2 tanks as in 1 MT 1 OT?

With 1 OT, a melee will bite it every time he isn't topped off above the melee in 1.2 sec.

With 2 OTs, the only way for melee to die is if they overaggro before the tanks are primed. Tell your DPS to watch the OTs, as they DO need to be top X on threat.
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Postby Splug » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:54 am

Cakes wrote:
Splug wrote:Ret paladins won the dice roll to be the overpowered class at 70. This iteration, they may well have lost it. What 3.x shows is anyone's guess. It's also possible that due to retribution being a lower damage spec in 2.4, fewer guilds use them, and thus there are less to produce the results you're looking for. Or maybe they're just not being fed Hysteria chains on an IV, like warriors occasionally are.

-Splug


The problem that I have with that Splug, that while iterative, the process should not be pendular in nature. The fact that a class can go from brokenly overpowered to severely undertuned in the span of ten levels is shortsighted at best. It's even more irritating when they explicity said that retuning ret was not because of public outcry about getting destroyed by ret pallies in battlegrounds, but that they were simply doing too much damage both at 70 and 80. How? When? I'd love to see this mystical fabled font of data, but the vast majority of stuff that I saw from Beta Naxx showed Ret pallies right where they are now.

I feel even worse for rogues, who aren't getting the attention they should be due to bugged mechanics working in their favor for the short term.

Edit: Back on topic, anyone else have melee sort of "randomly" die on this fight still while using 2 tanks? I think our last kill we just had one sneak in too early and he ended up taking a hateful about 3 seconds into the fight, while everyone else lived.
When I was doing Naxx-10 runs during beta, Selinaria was pretty much only competing with feral druids, with a ~1k dps dropoff before hitting the rest of the damage classes. At the time, we were in mostly blue lv 80 gear, and Sel was consistently in the 3k-3.5k range despite the poor equipment. It seemed logical that someone actually fully equipped for the spec would be doing better, rather than a last minute "sure, I'll respec because we want replenishment!" Since then, nerfs have pulled things back under the target - it's not a perfect system, I'll give it that, but the alternative is extremely slow conservative changes that are obsolete before they go live; gear level changes and everything needs to be recalculated.

PsiVen wrote:Do you mean 2 OTs or 2 tanks as in 1 MT 1 OT?
I've seen people claim that it's actually easier to keep up one offtank and just have healers spam wildly on him, the theory being that two heals will land after each hateful strike and just refill the health bar. We tried this once and got exactly the results you're describing! Given the bone shield mechanics, I can't see how that's possibly easier than having a paladin/warrior MT, druid as OT1, lolboneshieldwithinfrequenthits DK as OT2.

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Postby Petrus » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:11 am

We tend to have our DK tank him and put me and our other paladin on OT duty.

That said, we're going to try our rogues on HaT duty next week.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:00 pm

I've seen people claim that it's actually easier to keep up one offtank and just have healers spam wildly on him, the theory being that two heals will land after each hateful strike and just refill the health bar. We tried this once and got exactly the results you're describing! Given the bone shield mechanics, I can't see how that's possibly easier than having a paladin/warrior MT, druid as OT1, lolboneshieldwithinfrequenthits DK as OT2.

-Splug


In our parse, linked above, all but one hateful strike was taken by our single druid OT, with the one outlier absorbed by a DK. We were running with only 4 healers.
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Postby Lowgrus » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:42 am

I don't see how your suppose to complete this achievement when melee just eats so many hateful strikes?

In 10 man Me and my OT are definitly always highest HP. Always top two on aggro... yet melee always dies.

Same thing in 25 man. Its absurd its like they just pop cooldowns till they get hatefuled. Obvioulsy we kill him been clearing it every week forever now by forever like since release but melee always get hateful C:
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Postby Meloree » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:57 pm

We got it by accident this week with our usual 6 healer nonstacked raid. You don't really have to push for it, sooner or later you'll hit the dps requirements just with gear upgrades.

http://wowwebstats.com/hl556tyxcj4mc?m&s=447314-474045

Melee shouldn't ever take a hateful strike. If you have the normal 3-tank setup in 25-man, and your melee are eating hateful strikes, either the OTs fail at threat, or the healers fail at topping up tanks in the requisite timeframe.

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Postby Nalyn » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:14 pm

We likely would have come very close on it this week, if one of our priest healers had actually healed the way he was told to... 4:16, with an OT down at 75% and all of the melees down by 50%.
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Postby Cakes » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:48 pm

Got the achievement this week with 2 dps dead for most of the fight. Still having melee die from the OT not being topped off soon enough, but I think a few healing changes and we can handle it.
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Postby Splug » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:11 pm

After clocking in six seconds short without flasking, a few people running experimental builds, and me forgetting to raise a pet, I get the feeling we's be looking at this a bit more directly next week.

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Postby Jellypop » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:39 pm

we probably got the achievement the 2nd kill, it wasn't that hard, dpsers dps'ed, tanks tanked, healers healed.

Our best was 2'52 last week, I happened to sit Patch out that night, 3 tanks, 6 healers, rest DPS

[url]
http://wowwebstats.com/cxjxoc1x6ejow?s=35905-70090[/url]

now it's dropped to 350ish, was 100th when we posted, and we do not use HaT rogues / Mage hacks / whatever else.

If we filter out all the HaT rogue fights we'd make it to top 100 easily
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