UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby andz » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:06 pm

I personally get some hit when i get my hands on it, however dropping def stats for it is not an option for me. I aim for meele hit cap against mobs +1, which covers most trash mobs (damn frustrating if they run straight to the healer) and makes it very unlikely to miss a few times at a row against bosses.
andz
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:21 pm

Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby ahpy » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:24 pm

Honorshammer wrote:Hit Cap

At level 70, to be Hit Capped so you wouldn't miss, you needed 141 Hit Rating, further reduced to 95 by the talent Precision. Well Precision went bye bye. At level 80, you need 295 Hit Rating to be Hit Capped.


Testing at 80 with no hit gear shows that you need nothing like 295 hit rating to be capped (for melee). Please consider changing this info. 5% is needed for melee and 13% for spells (based on testing on boss dummy with about 4000 swings).
ahpy
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:37 am

Postby cordelia » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:54 am

I strongly disagree that gearing tankadins should be aiming for any of these caps except for the defense minimum. The research and theory on Stam/BV/Armor stacking vs. Block Rating is very preliminary and inconclusive. Furthermore, threat theorycraft clearly shows that hit and expertise are next to useless compared to Str, AP, BV, two of which increase mitigation to boot. Certainly Taunt-CAP is important, but that's an entirely different animal due to the glyph.

I hate to be so harsh, but I strongly believe that suggesting that tankadins should prioritize gearing by reaching for Defense Cap, then Block Cap, then Hit Cap, then Expertise Cap is misinformation.
User avatar
cordelia
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:33 am

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:41 pm

econ21 wrote:I am confused - should we be stacking hit now? According to PsiVen's calculations, it is worth only a little more than 1/3 of strength's tps:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... e&p=290130

This seems to imply we should just roll with the punches - or rather the misses - and not worry about it. Threat does not seem to a big issue for us and hit does not seem a very efficient way of getting threat anyway.

But then I read a post by PsiVen saying he was looking for +hit gear. And I am also starting to get frustrated by my misses.

What do people think?


After eyeing intro gear, I'm going to end up with 6-7% hit on what gear I'd like to start raiding with. Why? Because the alternatives are so marginal.

Compare a str/stam/def piece (crafteds, anyone?) with a same-ilvl tanking piece that also adds hit rating, of which there are *many* slots. The way the item budgets work, I'm more than fine losing ~5 stam and ~ 5-6 def rating for like 30 hit, which is what it ends up being. It's the same problem with dps plate vs. the dps armor for the "agi classes". More stat options = more total stats on the gear. Spreading it around nets more en toto.

I sandboxed out a starter set and it's something like 25.5k unbuffed hps, 555 defense skill, 7.5% hit, dodge cap expertise (freaking CE+SoV+Mace Spec+eng goggles... it's going to be hard to NOT find more expertise on other pieces), and ~2100 AP. Seemed pretty reasonable on the gear choices to me. Anyone think one of those stats is too low? Maybe hps, but that's unbuffed... looks like buffed that approaches 30k pretty easily. One thing I wish I had more of was actual block value. Seems hard to come by on pre-raid gear.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Postby Arizara » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:40 am

with a few naxx 25's, ive got 158 hit... and i miss more than id like, but its not that horrible.

from wws, and just the "feel" of it, im shooting for 200-225 hit if possible, then maintaining my 20-30 expertise with SoC glyph (if im not use SoC, its cause im not the MT on the mob, and thus im behind and limit expertise's use by half anyway)

honestly, i think 295 hit is not attainable, though there are the 95 hit rating trinkets etc. i may consider tossing one on for trash or something...

also, i'd recommend people look at maintaining 550 defense as best they can... when you get that uber-upgrade that drops you down 4-5 defense points before you grab your scrolls or enchanting mats, its nice to put it on right then.
Arizara
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:34 pm

Postby Tekkel » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:47 am

I'm at the 250 hit rating mark in my usual set with 23 expertise. Granted I socketed some gems with hit/stam while I get different gear but I'm passing the 50% evasion mark unbuffed which is imho enough for everything that's availble now. If you go stack more stam/bv/str it's fine but imho 7% hit is good enough for anything in 25 man because you probably get added hit to mobs from the debuffs other classes do and that maxes it out.

You could probably go for a hit/expertise capped set for heroics to avoid any misses there but really with 7% hit and 23 expertise I got 2 hotr dodged in 330 hits and only my white swings getting alot of parries.
User avatar
Tekkel
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:10 am
Location: EU Silvermoon

Postby Brudar » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:15 pm

I think I'm lost really far away, but what exactly is this Block Cap? It confuses me for some reason even after reading this post and a few others.

Here is my armory if its needed:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n&n=Brudar

Haven't had the chance to do heroics yet mostly due to nerves and people in TBC. Im balanced out at 897 BV atm thinking about buying the BoE neck and with kings it would put me over 1k BV but if talked out of it here I would save up for the badge neck instead. If someone could interpret this "Block Cap" differently it would be great.


Thanks in advance,
Brudar
Before:
Image

After:
Image
User avatar
Brudar
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:07 am

Postby lythac » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:34 am

Tankadin Glossary for WoTLK wrote:Block Cap - The point where additional Block Chance falls the table. A paladin reaches this point against a raid boss when their chance to be missed+dodge+parry+block an attack adds up to 102.4. Formerly uncrushable.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2694
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Postby Brudar » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:17 am

Ok so its just a 'newer' word for uncrushable even though they took the ability out?
Before:
Image

After:
Image
User avatar
Brudar
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:07 am

Postby lythac » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:47 am

Agnara showing why hits are bad

This is the best and easiest to understand explanation I have seen.

The whole thread is Here. In short - hits are bad, block everything. Not as bad as crushings were but still bad.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2694
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Postby Brudar » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:31 am

Thank you =)
Before:
Image

After:
Image
User avatar
Brudar
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:07 am

block cap

Postby Leelu » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:40 pm

I know this is a stupid question, but you metioned Block cap...what eaxaclty is the block cap?, i'm at like 18.55% block rating w/o HS up and . with it up i'm at and 48.55% Block rating should i not worry about Block rating anymore with ym stats like that?
Image
Leelu
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:34 am

Re: block cap

Postby Zironic » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:10 pm

Leelu wrote:I know this is a stupid question, but you metioned Block cap...what eaxaclty is the block cap?, i'm at like 18.55% block rating w/o HS up and . with it up i'm at and 48.55% Block rating should i not worry about Block rating anymore with ym stats like that?


It's not actually a cap. Basically when your paperdoll stats+10%(miss)+30%(holy shield) > 102.4% then every hit against you will be blocked and any blockrating beyond that is worthless.

Note that my numbers are very rough.
Image
Zironic
 
Posts: 2133
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:07 am

Postby Leelu » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:04 pm

thank you :D so once i hit 102.4% with hs up i should stop worrying about block so much?
Image
Leelu
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:34 am

Postby Darus » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:56 am

Worldie wrote:The Libram of Repentance is somewhere close to 2% block at 80. Not impressive but still worth using if you are at that damn 1% away from the cap.


Its never worth swapping for obstruction. Even if it would mean getting hit now and then.
Darus
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:43 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest