Resilience and defense?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Resilience and defense?

Postby Veri » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:17 pm

This is 100% theorycrafting, I wouldn't really stack resil because of how bad it is for tanking.

Someone was talking on the official paladin forums about vengeance and resil; how crits converted to hits will only proc effects for the defender (useless info).

This made me wonder about resil: "does the chance to crit still exist in the table or is it removed"?

Reaching uncrushable is easy, this is just theory crafting.

If you have a 5% chance to be crit by a mob, and you have -4% from defense and -1% from resil, will that 1% remain in the mobs hit table (at uncrushable) because it is higher on the table than block?

Wouldn't that make resil a dangerous stat to have? (how would you get rid of that 1% hit?)

Would that mean you only need to hit 101.4 to become uncrushable?
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Re: Resilience and defense?

Postby Dorvan » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:28 pm

To the best of my knowledge crit reducing effect of resilience is exactly the same mechanic as that of defense for PvE purposes. So in theory resilience lowers your needed defense, but in practice you want the avoidance from the defense anyway, so there isn't any point to going this route. The one situation that comes to mind where you might actually make use of resilience is using the Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall on Hydross, since on that fight your defense drops quite a bit if you gear up in resistance gear.
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Re: Resilience and defense?

Postby Veri » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:12 pm

Dorvan wrote:To the best of my knowledge crit reducing effect of resilience is exactly the same mechanic as that of defense for PvE purposes. So in theory resilience lowers your needed defense, but in practice you want the avoidance from the defense anyway, so there isn't any point to going this route. The one situation that comes to mind where you might actually make use of resilience is using the Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall on Hydross, since on that fight your defense drops quite a bit if you gear up in resistance gear.


I understand what they do, I just want to know how they do it.

The hit table example on wowwiki describes the mobs hit table like that of a dinner table, if you place a new item on it something else must fall off the edge.

The mechanic I want to discuss is how resil will convert your crits to hits. Does defense do this? Does it get converted to hit above the block or does it get moved as converted hit to below block?

If it stays there then there will always be a hole between block and dodge/parry where you will have a small amount of hit that is, for the most part, impossible to get rid of.

Anyone have a faint clue as how defense/resil converts crits?
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Re: Resilience and defense?

Postby Everlight » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:31 pm

They both convert crits to hits, by a fairly intuitive process. The end of the combat table is all "hit". Thus, anything that directly reduces a particular avoidance pulls "up" the end of the combat table, and adds in hit.

I'll repeat that again. Anything that is not dodge, miss, dodge, parry, block, crit, or crush is hit. A 5% reduction in crit chance increases your chance to be hit by 5%, since the rest of your combat table shifts up and leaves a 5% gap at the bottom that becomes hit. Assuming the rest of the table isn't sufficiently full of block to push that off the bottom too.
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Re: Resilience and defense?

Postby Dorvan » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:37 pm

Everlight wrote:They both convert crits to hits, by a fairly intuitive process. The end of the combat table is all "hit". Thus, anything that directly reduces a particular avoidance pulls "up" the end of the combat table, and adds in hit.

I'll repeat that again. Anything that is not dodge, miss, dodge, parry, block, crit, or crush is hit. A 5% reduction in crit chance increases your chance to be hit by 5%, since the rest of your combat table shifts up and leaves a 5% gap at the bottom that becomes hit. Assuming the rest of the table isn't sufficiently full of block to push that off the bottom too.


Ah, I didn't understand your question properly OP. What Everlight's written here is correct.
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Re: Resilience and defense?

Postby Veri » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:41 pm

Everlight wrote:They both convert crits to hits, by a fairly intuitive process. The end of the combat table is all "hit". Thus, anything that directly reduces a particular avoidance pulls "up" the end of the combat table, and adds in hit.

I'll repeat that again. Anything that is not dodge, miss, dodge, parry, block, crit, or crush is hit. A 5% reduction in crit chance increases your chance to be hit by 5%, since the rest of your combat table shifts up and leaves a 5% gap at the bottom that becomes hit. Assuming the rest of the table isn't sufficiently full of block to push that off the bottom too.


So does that put "Crit converted by resil" with the hit? A resil hit has to be different in some way or it would not trigger defensive critical talents.

Your sure it gets moved to the bottom too? Is there any way to test this?
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Re: Resilience and defense?

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:53 am

Veri wrote:
Everlight wrote:They both convert crits to hits, by a fairly intuitive process. The end of the combat table is all "hit". Thus, anything that directly reduces a particular avoidance pulls "up" the end of the combat table, and adds in hit.

I'll repeat that again. Anything that is not dodge, miss, dodge, parry, block, crit, or crush is hit. A 5% reduction in crit chance increases your chance to be hit by 5%, since the rest of your combat table shifts up and leaves a 5% gap at the bottom that becomes hit. Assuming the rest of the table isn't sufficiently full of block to push that off the bottom too.


So does that put "Crit converted by resil" with the hit? A resil hit has to be different in some way or it would not trigger defensive critical talents.

Your sure it gets moved to the bottom too? Is there any way to test this?


Yeah there is some difference, or at least another check. Some skills that happen only when you take a crit, can happen when you would have been crit if not for the resilience. Also PVP specials are thougt to use a 2 roll system beacuse in PVP you can take a blocked crit from certain specials, a combination not possible with the PVE table as described.
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