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Maintankadin Designed Tank Balancing Skill(s)

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Maintankadin Designed Tank Balancing Skill(s)

Postby Ubung » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:31 am

I wanted to start a discussion about the many topics ive read with idea's for new paladin skills to make up for our shortcomings. Now a lot of the idea's ive read have been excellent for a particular purpose but maybe didnt take into account the impact they would have on other skills.

I thought we could do 3 things as a community

1) Pinpoint the area's where we lack and explain why
2) Come up with new skills based on the skills we lack in
3) Come up with new skills we would like based on the 2 new tank skills being a part of the game

Now I know all these things have been discussed throughout lotsa topics but I thought if we did it in an organised way we could present something to Blizzard that is a combined effort from the largest Tankadin community on the net. Which should at least get noticed.

I wanted to do it in 3 stages. The 1st will be discussing the problems we have as pally tanks. Not what you think should be done about it just what they are. It would be good if you could include why that is a failing as well.

Stamina is a good example, we lack 1500 stamina when compared to warriors due to a talent (I actually dont know which talent it is!?) This puts us on the backfoot immediately when gearing.

So until Monday 8th of October please only provide replies to the 1st problem I raised. After that we can continue into the 2nd part for a week then the third part.

All idea's will be seriously considered and I dont want any sniping of idea's cus they dont work. Just come on and post why they wont work and what you would suggest instead. Every idea that is contested will be put to the vote using the poll option on the forum.

Ok so first of all: What do we lack when tanking?

1) Stamina - We lose 1500 to warriors because of a talent (I think)
2) Spell Resistance - We take mega dmg against casters
3) Fear Ward - We have no reliable way to remove fear effects
4) Silence - We can do nothing when silenced
5) Interupt - Our only interupt (HOJ) works on no boss I know off
6) No coefficient between varied skills such as def/mit/Int/Spelldmg - We have no freedom with our gear due to the amount of stats we need
7) No emergency situation skills like shield wall - we lack something to slow/reduce incoming dmg

Ok thats the ones I can think off. These are in no particular order of importance just area's I feel we lack in. We can decide on an order of importance for the above idea's which will help when we design the new skill.

Thanks for listening. This is my project for the next few weeks. I will collate all information and keep you updated.
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Re: Maintankadin Designed Tank Balancing Skill(s)

Postby jere » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:22 am

Ubung wrote:
1) Stamina - We lose 1500 to warriors because of a talent (I think)
2) Spell Resistance - We take mega dmg against casters
3) Fear Ward - We have no reliable way to remove fear effects
4) Silence - We can do nothing when silenced
5) Interupt - Our only interupt (HOJ) works on no boss I know off
6) No coefficient between varied skills such as def/mit/Int/Spelldmg - We have no freedom with our gear due to the amount of stats we need
7) No emergency situation skills like shield wall - we lack something to slow/reduce incoming dmg



Just some things to consider:

1) It's not due to talents. They have 1200ish more base health + ranged slot

2) We don't take that much more damage against casters than a warrior does. If a warrior is getting hit for 1000 dmg, we are taking 1067 dmg. I wouldn't call it a mega difference

4) Warriors can do nothing when disarmed (though Bears are exempt). I am not as concerned with being silenced as I am the number of encounters that silence versus the number of encounters that disarm, which is very disproportional.

7) While some will abhorantly disagree with this, I use LoH all the time as an "oh crap" button. I just make a macro to self cast it on me and if I take a sudden drop in health, I pop it. It has saved raids many times. Still, I would like something more along the lines of less damage as that is indeed less quirky than an instant cast full heal.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:27 am

Talents have nothing to do with the stamina gap between Paladins and Warriors. They have a higher base HP than us, and have a gun slot.

We also don't *need* to have the same amount of hit points as a Warrior. After all, Warriors have fewer HP than Druids, and yet are still considered the better tanking class. This is because, even though the Druid has a ridiculous amount of hit points, the Warrior still takes less damage, and when it's all said and done the Druid tank doesn't give any more margin of error to his healers because his health bar still moves just as fast.

Consider this: if there were no numbers available to your healers, if they had no idea exactly how much they were healing you for, exactly how much damage you're taking, or exactly how much health you have to begin with, how would they determine which tank is easier to heal? The answer is they'd pick the one whose health bar drops the least when hit. The fact is, when it comes right down to it, your healers don't care how much HP you have. They just want to be able to heal you before you die.

There are two ways to increase a tank's longevity. You can increase hit points, or you can reduce the amount of damage they're actually taking. The difference between the two is simply this: You don't have to heal damage that your tank never took. To that end, I think clamoring for additional HP is like begging a Porsche dealer to give you a free Honda Civic. Sure, it'll get you around... but there's much better options available.

I'd like to see us get more raw damage reduction. I'd like to be able to run up to the big, nasty boss dude with 3k less hit points than the Warrior next to me, and not worry about it because he's going to hit me for 3k less damage. There's a lot of options in this regard, increased block value through Blessing of Deterrence (if and when it sees the light of day) is a huge step, and increasing RF's damage reduction effect to 10% (and possibly Spell Warding's effect to 6% as well) would be very beneficial as well.
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Postby Teah » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:49 am

I think asking for more stamina is pretty much going to get us nowhere. You have to factor in Holy and Ret paladins as well. They are why we aren't going to see 1200 more base HP. Imagine a Holy paladin with that in arena?

There was talk about increasing the damage reduction on RF to 10% and adding 20% healing from other sources on it. That might help as well, though not as much as what Lore is suggesting.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:07 am

If the more HP was a talent deep in the protection tree, I'll hardly see an issue as holy wouldn't be able to get it.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:09 am

Belarkan wrote:If the more HP was a talent deep in the protection tree, I'll hardly see an issue as holy wouldn't be able to get it.


There's already a talent deep in the prot tree to give us more HP, I don't see them including another one.
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Postby Ubung » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:22 am

Excellent guys, this is exactly what I wanted. I didnt even know that most people were not bothered about the extra stamina. A way to not take that extra dmg through BV or a dmg reduction talent is a great idea as it runs parrallel to Blizz's vision of a different type of tank.

I dont think a baseline increase in stamina would be a good idea but possibly a talent deep in the prot tree (replacing something pointless like ardent defender or Sacred Duty and deep enough to gimp healing through getting it) that increases stamina received from armour/weapon by a set %. The percentage would have to give us roughly the same HP as warriors.

Although I think this is a good idea I agree with you guys in that this isnt the way Blizz wants to make Prot Paladins.

Thanks for all your input guys, so far Im feeling that a way to mitigate that 1500hp difference rather than a full increase in stamina. I think I also agree with Silence being an issue of too many mobs silence and like 1 that I know off disarms.

Thanks for the info on the difference in spell dmg taken. I was under the impression that it was more.

Edit: I cant remember where but I saw something about increasing healing received. I think this would be a great way of mitigating that dmg. What do you think?
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Postby enbee » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:34 am

Ubung wrote:(...)replacing something pointless like ardent defender(...)


Stop right there, ardent defender is far from pointless, it's kept me allive countless times where I'm sure I would've been dead without, it makes up for our slightly lower hp... in most cases
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A little off topic

Postby excalibrax » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:33 am

I know this is a little off topic but check this out
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2043489310&postId=19961680643&sid=1#1

Basically it offers quite a few ways to change the way we do things, Increased Devotion, Increased Redoubt, Mana return on block with Shield Spec. Increased Resistances with spell warding, A slightly reworked and OP Reckoning that is based off of dodge and parry instead of damage taken, Increased spell damage based off Defensive stats, Improved BoS,

Vitality, 10% chance after avoiding an attack to have your next healing spell be instant cast. This I like, it can make up the health difference but still cost mana, still generate threat.

I think the protection tree hits the nail on the head of the sort of problems we have and offers ways to fix them, and increase difference, I just thought when you guys got to it you would like the link and some info.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:49 am

One thing I remember hearing Jeff Kaplan mention in one of the Blizzcon interviews he did was that they have a hard time listening to feedback that's purely recommended fixes. According to him, and I believe he's right in this, a lot of times we as players get too hung up over our ideas of what could be done to make the class "better" and ultimately fail at describing just exactly what the problem is to begin with.

I would hope at this point that Blizzard has at least some handle on what we consider the primary problems with our class, but it's a good thing to keep in mind when making posts that we want them to read.
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Postby Teah » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:51 pm

Ubung wrote:I dont think a baseline increase in stamina would be a good idea but possibly a talent deep in the prot tree (replacing something pointless like ardent defender or Sacred Duty and deep enough to gimp healing through getting it) that increases stamina received from armour/weapon by a set %. The percentage would have to give us roughly the same HP as warriors.

Although I think this is a good idea I agree with you guys in that this isnt the way Blizz wants to make Prot Paladins.

Thanks for all your input guys, so far Im feeling that a way to mitigate that 1500hp difference rather than a full increase in stamina. I think I also agree with Silence being an issue of too many mobs silence and like 1 that I know off disarms.

Thanks for the info on the difference in spell dmg taken. I was under the impression that it was more.

Edit: I cant remember where but I saw something about increasing healing received. I think this would be a great way of mitigating that dmg. What do you think?


AD isn't useless as stated before. I was talking to a friend and he actually thought the +healing thing should be put into AD. The reason is that AD is the way Blizzard is trying to fix our HP problem in the first place.

His idea was to add increased healing by 2/4/6/8/10% and when the paladin is below 35% health to increase healing by 4/8/12/16/20% in addition to the damage reduction.

I don't think silence is really such a problem.. we are a casting tank we should have that weakness.

Also as stated before we already have a stamina talent deep in the tree. I'm not really sure if increasing our health is the best way to go about things. I mean what if we could block for 700-1k early on and hold the 1k-2k range through-out content? That would fix the HP thing too. Like Lore said it would be nice to not have to worry about the lower HP count. I'm a firm believer our HP count holds us back in a lot of ways. Allowing us to lessen damage in another way would give us a lot of freedom while gearing up as well.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:10 am

Teah wrote:AD isn't useless as stated before. I was talking to a friend and he actually thought the +healing thing should be put into AD. The reason is that AD is the way Blizzard is trying to fix our HP problem in the first place.

His idea was to add increased healing by 2/4/6/8/10% and when the paladin is below 35% health to increase healing by 4/8/12/16/20% in addition to the damage reduction.

I don't think silence is really such a problem.. we are a casting tank we should have that weakness.

Also as stated before we already have a stamina talent deep in the tree. I'm not really sure if increasing our health is the best way to go about things. I mean what if we could block for 700-1k early on and hold the 1k-2k range through-out content? That would fix the HP thing too. Like Lore said it would be nice to not have to worry about the lower HP count. I'm a firm believer our HP count holds us back in a lot of ways. Allowing us to lessen damage in another way would give us a lot of freedom while gearing up as well.


I won't call AD useless but it's not all that useful either, many 25 man bosses completely ignore it. It's superb for aoe tanking, but not so much for bosses.

As for the stamina, the reason people say a deep prot talent is because that's what tom chilton said at blizzcon, of course they already have too many deep prot talents that are meant to be hard to get for holy and ret as it is. Personally, I don' t think a straight increase to base HP would make much of a difference in arenas, and it's not less because of PVP, it's always been less because warriors were the tanking class by design. But you could just add 600 base health to each point in sacred duty if you wanted too.

I can't imagine how the devs couldn't possibly have grapsed our problem once prot pallys were hitting the 25mans, we have the lowest health and take the most dmg. The health problem is also exacerbated a bit because our gear (especially early on) tends to carry less than a warrior's gear, and of course the whole crushing blow line forcing our hand a bit. Something in that combination must give, I don't really care how, but we aren't going to be as effective as other classes against a high dmg boss, as long as both of those are true.
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Postby Garwin » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:40 am

I'd like to see more made of the paladins blocking system to be honest

redoubt is unrelyable, and with the +block libram not contributing to it, it puts it at odds with holy sheild if your min maxing your stats to make make youself uncrushable (eg: your uncrushable with holy sheild but crushable with redoubt)

coupled with the lag window between holy sheilds you can find yourself more crushable that you might like to be.

it would be nice to see redoubt changed for starters (akin to a previously suggested +5% to blockbase and +25% with redoubt with 5 talent points realativly meaningless but nice) but to really make it worth the points also to:

Have it's duration extended by 2.5 or 5 seconds (.5 or 1 second per talent point),
Have the librams bonus apply to redoubt as well and most importantly... Have holy sheild charges used before redoubt charges, basically stopping redoubt from stacking it's block rateing with holy sheild but giving us a much stronger ability to remain uncrushable and removing the lag window (while also actually giving us a little leway in just when we want to fire off the next holy sheild).

making more of our block value would also appeal to me, make it pull double duty (or duty and a half I suppose) by using it in another fashion, perhaps reducing spell damage by it or it providing some bonus to all spell resistances (30% say just picking random numbers out))
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Postby Klimpen » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:17 am

Let's keep it on topic guys, talking about what we might like to have isn't the point of this thread, at this point in time.

One thing I havn't seen mentioned is mana-drain.

Another thing, which is less mechanic related is that we don't bring anything to the table [raid] that another Paladin couldn't do. Spec specific utility.

While, yes, all warriors also bring the same amount of utility, you can't rely on normal DPS warriors to remember to keep TC/Demo Shout up. You don't have to rely on a Holy/Ret Paladin doing a move which will reduce their Healing/DPS potential, because there isn't one.
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Postby Fragh » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:10 am

Lore wrote:One thing I remember hearing Jeff Kaplan mention in one of the Blizzcon interviews he did was that they have a hard time listening to feedback that's purely recommended fixes. According to him, and I believe he's right in this, a lot of times we as players get too hung up over our ideas of what could be done to make the class "better" and ultimately fail at describing just exactly what the problem is to begin with.



I would hope at this point that Blizzard has at least some handle on what we consider the primary problems with our class, but it's a good thing to keep in mind when making posts that we want them to read.



I have found growing up as a tankadin almost since the beginning of TBC that I have had several growing pains. Basically, our warrior, quit our little leveling group so I switched from holy to prot. Wow I was amazed and never turned back.

As I learned the ways of paladin tanking I went trough several phases.
First I was like zomg I need to be "un-crushable". I soon learned that
reaching this was not a big deal. The next challenge was "HPS, HPS, HPS". Again I learned that with all Kara gear and some post kara gear this isnt a big deal. I do believe I may have some better gear than him though. I still have much less HP than our warrior in our guild and far less than our druid. Next I found myself needing more agro generation.... can you say + spell damage? I found myself needing to compete in fights, such as VR without being hit, for a large amount of TPS (700+ sustained). I solved a large amount of this with stat food and wizard oil. More spell dmg would be nice. The last and hardest challenge I am having, the most difficult challenge, is acceptance as a tank. This is a continual and ongoing challenge. I often hear and it tweaks the hell outta me ..."oh a warrior is better for this or that". Our lack of spell reflect and "stance dance" <- warrior thing for breaking out of fear seem to give the impression that warriors do specific fights better. Another item I often find myself dealing with is that "oh paladin's take more damage" which also falls into the acceptance category. Well I have very similar avoidance to our warrior but still seem to get that attitude.

According to 'The Vault' (awesome feature!) on Wowjutsu.com:

Data acquired as of 28 September 2007.

Number of Paladins who have T6 Tankadin Gloves: 23
Number of those paladins who are spec'd holy or Ret: 6
Number of prot paladins: 17
Number of prot warriors with T6 Gloves: 415 out of 601 total.



Number of Paladins who have any other T6 tankadin Piece: 0
Number of Prot warriors with any other T6 Tank piece: 630 out of 989 total


This tells me that in end game raiding PVE guilds that paladins are largely not accpeted as tanks.

Lore, to be brief and to your point above, I think the toughest problem a tankadin faces is just that acceptance. Other than AOE tanking it seems the preception is that prot warriors are a better choice. I am always fighting to prove that we can be just as good in just about every situation.


Right now I am looking for more stam (always), more spell damage, fights where paladin tanks are required or shine very well in, more spell dmg avoidance and better fear breaks.

I hope this helps describe what I think is the problem.

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