The Tier 5 to Tier 6 Transition

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Postby Mortehl » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:48 am

Warrender wrote:T4 gear is what you need to wear in order to get T5.

T5 gear is what you need to wear in order to get T6.

T6 gear is what you wear around Shat in order to tell people you beat WoW.


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Postby Nerfage » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:16 am

Palafix wrote: Block value isn't even that good, it's pretty crappy compared to stam while looking at it through the view of pure EH.


I pretty much agree with you on most of your post other than this. All of the articles written about EH were written with warriors and druid tanks in mind. Warriors aren't immune to crushing blows except on slow hitting mobs, and even then, if they get an on lucky streak they can still be crushed. Druids will get crushed untill they can hit the 102% dodge point(not going to happen).

Paladins on the other hand take ALL of their damage through their shield.(with a few exceptions) So, over the course of a fight, Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 may out perform Darkmoon Card: Vengeance. The first time you tackle a new boss should be enough info to know what to use the next time.
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Postby elson » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:03 am

I'm curious as to how possible it is to maintain a lower level of pure avoidance (40%ish) with the non tier drops from this level of the game. I have noticed strong synergy between gearing for effective health over avoidance and a large portion of the paladin tanking arsenal, so it would be somewhat dissapointing to have no other option but to see these talents diminish in value as the game progresses.

As for following whatever intention may be there in gear design. I have very little faith that there is proper understanding about what stats are most beneficial. Not only to our class/spec but many others as well. IMO Paladin tanking is still in development, and the design of the gear reflects the current learning process.
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Postby Teah » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:44 am

Lore wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Lore wrote:It's built purely with a focus on clearing content that you aren't "geared up for", or constantly pushing on to the next boss regardless of what you killed the week before.


Well that's the subjective claim at least, but I'd say any school of logic for gearing would claim that. To me effective health is more about dealing with spike dmg, which is pretty dangerous on most bosses, whether it comes in form of a burst of dmg or a lag in healing for one reason or another. The effectiveness of any style will always vary a bit by boss though, context means everything.


Yeah, exactly. It's pretty closely related. As you out-progress your gear, dealing with both spike damage and healer mana becomes impractical. So, since only the tank can deal with spike damage, they focus on that (with avoidance stats as a nice plus) while the burden of mana falls more to the rest of the raid.

As to T6 being a "MT" set... there are much better offset pieces for just about every slot. The only pieces I plan on wearing are the chest and the shoulders, and even then only the shoulders for the 2-piece bonus.


See I'm not in BT yet. But one of the things that has helped me stay alive is pushing avoidance on gear then socketing stam. It's kind of a mix rather favoring one over the other.

The only thing about getting a lot of non-set items is it pushes your spell damage pretty low. I'm not sure how I am supposed to hold threat off the DPS in BT without at least 500 spell damage.. I see some crazy reports of people DPSing at like 1700 DPS? >< I have a hard enough time unless I'm pushing to my max threat now, in full T4. Is this a fault of my DPS or me? I end up popping wings and everything except for JoC. They don't give me time to JoC...
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Postby Mateo » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:55 am

Teah wrote:
See I'm not in BT yet. But one of the things that has helped me stay alive is pushing avoidance on gear then socketing stam. It's kind of a mix rather favoring one over the other.

The only thing about getting a lot of non-set items is it pushes your spell damage pretty low. I'm not sure how I am supposed to hold threat off the DPS in BT without at least 500 spell damage.. I see some crazy reports of people DPSing at like 1700 DPS? >< I have a hard enough time unless I'm pushing to my max threat now, in full T4. Is this a fault of my DPS or me? I end up popping wings and everything except for JoC. They don't give me time to JoC...


You're actually fine! I think I'm sitting at 440 spell power when I throw on my T4 helm, and about 480-500 spell power with Wizard Oil/Imp Spirit buff and we've just started Hyjal/BT within the last week, or so. Also remember that no matter what your TPS is, your smart DPS personnel will never pull aggro off of you intentionally. No matter if you're doing 400 TPS, or 1000, you're going to have some of your DPSers on your heels. DPS scales much better than TPS, and thus, they'll all have to hold back at least a little, no matter who the tank is.

They want to maximize their damage dealt during the encounter and that means flirting with your bar on the threat meter! I always ask my guys if they have a problem with my threat output for an encounter and I adjust my gear accordingly. I believe whole-heartedly that you're doing perfectly fine. =)
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Postby Kaelie » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:07 pm

If you wipe because the DPS pulled aggro, that's their fault, not yours. If you wipe when you're way ahead on threat, they need to gear better, play better, or stop watching TV while they raid. If you wipe to an enrage timer or your healers going OOM, then it's the tank's fault.
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Postby Lore » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:47 pm

Teah wrote:See I'm not in BT yet. But one of the things that has helped me stay alive is pushing avoidance on gear then socketing stam. It's kind of a mix rather favoring one over the other.


Yeah, that tends to be the best way to go about it. Obviously, shooting for 0 avoidance with every single item point spent on stamina is going to cause problems. A balance of both tends to come out best in the end by a large margin. When that balance has to lean to one side or the other, however, I prefer it to lean to the HP and Mitigation side as opposed to leaning to the Avoidance side.
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Postby Lieris » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:43 pm

Lore wrote:Oh, and there are other kinds of gems than 15 stam? ;)


There's 12 stamina gems. Other than that... *shrugs*
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Postby Worldie » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:59 pm

Lieris wrote:
Lore wrote:Oh, and there are other kinds of gems than 15 stam? ;)


There's 12 stamina gems. Other than that... *shrugs*

There's also that +18 stam gem now :roll:
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Postby Freelancer » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:25 am

Tome of the lightbringer plus the upgrade in shields themselfs kind of fill the block value loss going from tier 5 to tier 6. Now only if that damn libram would drop :) .
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Re: The Tier 5 to Tier 6 Transition

Postby Ferrosis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:33 pm

Neuron wrote:Ultimately, what is the message the Blizzard development team is trying to send to Paladin tanks? I subscribe to the effective health philosophy and believe in stamina, armor, and block value. So when I study this transition I get a bit confused.
...
What the hell is going on with the massive drop in block value and the massive increase in avoidance stats? I am not looking for a "so don't upgrade response or a you can tank illidan fine in T5" response. And yes I am capable of thinking outside of the box and ignoring socket bonuses and stacking +15 stam gems and am fully aware of all the other items that you can get. I am more so trying to decipher the message sent by the developers to us via the stat distribution.

In a pure comparison between T5 and T6, avoidance went way up and block value dropped (and somewhat block rating was lost although its not technically mitigation but you should get my drift). I also don't give a shit about the "meh you have plenty of block rating at that point" comment. That's irrelevant to what I am asking. Why the high avoidance?


Because Paladins cant agree on anything - see this thread where the person is arguing that T6 is good and T4/T5 don't have enough avoidance to bother taking them over Kara loot.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1
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Postby Dandreai » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:19 am

Unfortunately I only skimmed the majority of the posts (getting close to bed time), but I'd say judging by what I know the T6 shift plays on what we're generally weak on, though it seems odd to me that they would take away what we're strong in. Perhaps the intent is to make the paladin a more comparable class to Warriors.

I personally would rather stick with the T5 benefits of block stats and the like, since most of our damage and threat comes through that. Lowering that capability, yet bumping our avoidance seems like an attempt to drop our TPS but to also close the gap on HP in comparison to the other tanks.

Unfortunately my lack of personal knowledge at that level discredits me. I personally take it as a simple attempt to even the difference between Warriors and tankadins. I can't say I agree, however I'm sure I've missed some good points I'm sure were already brought up.

i will say though that more avoidance means less heals, which means less mana regen (SA), and that just seems like a bad deal too. Again, probably seeing this from the wrong angle.
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