No Reckoning?

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No Reckoning?

Postby pryse » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:52 am

I'm just wondering why no one ever uses Reckoning. Not gonna say my reasons for why I like it because I don't wanna sound like a nubcake lol
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:53 am

Better threat talents out there. Also better ultility talents in Prot to get past the T5.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:55 am

Since Vengeance is our seal of choice, and seals of Light and Wisdom have internal cooldowns, Reckoning does nothing but add white damage.

All other threat talents are better than reckoning, and there are more threat talents than we can get in a regular tank build.

TL;DR: everything's better than reckoning, so bad it is.
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Postby Sanadina » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:43 am

Reckoning is a no no for Raid tanks at this time. If a boss parries you, you can basically kill yourself with reckoning.

I understand there are some blue posts talking about modifying bosses parry/riposte type abilities that make this talent pretty dangerous for those of us tanking big hitters.

Also the benefit of Reckoning used to be the additional holy damage with Seal of Righteousness doing damage per hit. Most people us Seal of Corruption now which is a max 5 stacking dot, so basically the additional swings grant you no additional threat. You refresh your seal faster, so perhaps you get a little more mana/heath/threat from the healing done but it's pretty minimal.
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:53 am

Sanadina wrote:Reckoning is a no no for Raid tanks at this time. If a boss parries you, you can basically kill yourself with reckoning.

I understand there are some blue posts talking about modifying bosses parry/riposte type abilities that make this talent pretty dangerous for those of us tanking big hitters.

Also the benefit of Reckoning used to be the additional holy damage with Seal of Righteousness doing damage per hit. Most people us Seal of Corruption now which is a max 5 stacking dot, so basically the additional swings grant you no additional threat. You refresh your seal faster, so perhaps you get a little more mana/heath/threat from the healing done but it's pretty minimal.
From another thread were I responded to the myth of parry gib.

majiben wrote:24-26 expertise is the soft cap where dodges are removed. Boss dodge rate is in the range of 6-6.5% not 8%. Additionally, on bosses that do hit hard enough for parry haste to be a major issue blizzard disables the parry haste mechanic. Finally parry haste is hardly a danger now that crushing blows are removed and we have the most consistant mitigation against melee. Finally, we have relatively few parriable attacks. We have auto attack, HotR (still some arguement over this) and reckoning if specced into it. All the other tanking classes have several times more parriable attacks than we do in our cycle. Blizzard designs encounters to be tanked by any tank class, not make it dangerous for the best tank to tank and suicidal for any other one.

Picking up reckoning is not reckless in any way.

I am dismayed at the wide use of reckoning because it is a threat/dps stat lower than other options (SotP, HotC) that is only active while tanking that often steals points away from ultiliy talents (HotC, Kings, DG). I find it acceptable if you are running with many ret paladins freeing up a lot of points in prot and ret meaning that you need to pick some filler talents (Imp HoJ, reckoning) up to progress further down the tree. It's danger is barely a blip and there are larger issues if it is ever the source of a wipe.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:13 am

I spec'd it for easier AOE farming. It was that or divine guardian, and I don't feel divine guardian has merit for me yet.
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Postby Lore » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:34 am

I have Kings. If I didn't have Kings, I'd have Reckoning. It's not worth ever not having Kings handy though.
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Postby Arcand » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:43 am

It's not that I think Reckoning's bad. I just think you can get better value for the points elsewhere, especially when...

* My threat leads can generally be described as 'commanding', and
* It's very nearly impossible to have too much survivability.

I probably wouldn't have regretted taking it to level with, but eh.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:03 am

I have and enjoy Reckoning.
I am also the "crazy" paladin that typically uses Seal of Blood/Martyr over SoV.

However, Parrygib is a fantasy. People who go on about it in relation to reckoning conveniently forget about 90% of the MT warriors preferring 1.5 speed weapons for steady rage generation even though it OMG DOUBLES YouR WEApon ATTACKS compared to a 2.6+ speed weapon.

I plan to have 3/5 reckoning with no imp HoJ or Kings.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... 0000000000

(HotC maybe swapped for 4/5 Benediction if I see myself regularly not needing it)

About the only other build that has held any real interest in me is switching out 3/5 reckoning with 2/2 divine guardian and 1/2 guardian's favor.
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Postby thenNATEgoes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:13 am

Lore wrote:I have Kings. If I didn't have Kings, I'd have Reckoning. It's not worth ever not having Kings handy though.


I prefer Benediction over Kings, just so I can spec 2/2 Pursuit of Justice.

The other talents in ret are entirely a waste if you run with a ret paladin, and I'm almost always running with a ret paladin. It just makes instance farming that much faster. Less down time, imo and any talents that decrease my down time I'm all for it.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:36 am

thenNATEgoes wrote:
Lore wrote:I have Kings. If I didn't have Kings, I'd have Reckoning. It's not worth ever not having Kings handy though.


I prefer Benediction over Kings, just so I can spec 2/2 Pursuit of Justice.

The other talents in ret are entirely a waste if you run with a ret paladin, and I'm almost always running with a ret paladin. It just makes instance farming that much faster. Less down time, imo and any talents that decrease my down time I'm all for it.

The problem with this is you still need 3 points, assuming you don't spec divine guardian, to get further in the tree. So if you spend those 3 points in kings, there is only a realistic expenditure of 2 points at that point to top off kings. The other option is 2 points in divine guardian and 1 point elsewhere, or 3 points in reckoning / improved HoJ.

So, realistically, you can get PoJ and kings with 2 points left over. That said, Benediction doesn't make a lick of difference in solo farming. Even spec'd 5/5, you wouldn't save as much as simply pulling another mob and using sanctuary.
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Postby thenNATEgoes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:34 pm

Elsie wrote:The problem with this is you still need 3 points, assuming you don't spec divine guardian, to get further in the tree. So if you spend those 3 points in kings, there is only a realistic expenditure of 2 points at that point to top off kings. The other option is 2 points in divine guardian and 1 point elsewhere, or 3 points in reckoning / improved HoJ.

So, realistically, you can get PoJ and kings with 2 points left over. That said, Benediction doesn't make a lick of difference in solo farming. Even spec'd 5/5, you wouldn't save as much as simply pulling another mob and using sanctuary.


What problem? 5/5 Divine Strength 5/5 Anticipation 5/5 Toughness 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury 3/3 Improved Devotion Aura 3/3 Improved Hammer of Justice

Improved Hammer of Justice is a core prot talent, definitely worth it. Interrupt on a 30 sec CD and the ability to completely avoid damage for 6 sec on a single target. I could drop Improved Hammer of Justice and Guardians Favor to pick up Kings, but I prefer survivability. With the amount of mobs that can root in heroics, boy am I glad I have Guardians Favor.

PoJ is a tier 2 talent, without wasting points in Improved Might and Heart of the Crusader I'm not entirely sure how else to get it >.> If you run with a ret paladin 80% of the time those talents are a waste. I'd agree it wouldn't make a bit of a difference solo farming, but I'd argue it makes a substantial enough difference when instance/heroic farming. (Like I had previously mentioned)
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Postby Elsie » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:42 pm

What problem? 5/5 Divine Strength 5/5 Anticipation 5/5 Toughness 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury 3/3 Improved Devotion Aura 3/3 Improved Hammer of Justice

Improved Hammer of Justice is a core prot talent, definitely worth it. Interrupt on a 30 sec CD and the ability to completely avoid damage for 6 sec on a single target. I could drop Improved Hammer of Justice and Guardians Favor to pick up Kings, but I prefer survivability. With the amount of mobs that can root in heroics, boy am I glad I have Guardians Favor.

PoJ is a tier 2 talent, without wasting points in Improved Might and Heart of the Crusader I'm not entirely sure how else to get it >.> If you run with a ret paladin 80% of the time those talents are a waste. I'd agree it wouldn't make a bit of a difference solo farming, but I'd argue it makes a substantial enough difference when instance/heroic farming. (Like I had previously mentioned)

Improved HoJ is largely useless. As a stun, it's handy but completely unnecessary very quickly in heroics and worthless in raids due to immunity. As an interrupt, 30s is worthless as you are tanking, usually on GCD, and DK/warrior/rogue/shaman/mage all have a faster CD, better interrupt.

PoJ is a tier 3 talent. You need 12 points to get 2/2 PoJ. Benediction is, again, absolutely worthless for mana efficiency. Sanctuary provides more than enough, and if you're low there is divine plea. If you put points into benediction, it is worse than heart of the crusader Even With a Ret Paladin since at least you can judge a different mob, or the ret can die, or imp might if the ret is now being forced into kings. Once you get to heroics, I'm sure you'll see the same.
Last edited by Elsie on Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jcamper1337 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:45 pm

Ok so from what Im reading hear reckoning is bad but I cant see why

Im speced Into Reckoning and have NEVER parried Gibed a boss ever and I only have 14 points in Expertise and those 14 points are just from the Gear Im wearing.

I use recokning for the extra threat Gen on white damage and the faster attack spead. I actually Notice when it procs and when Im just above my current dps (Normally the Shadow Presit or our Boomking when I tell them to Go Nuts to see what I can hold off them) I notice Reckoning Pops my threat up by a good Amount.

Though I do use the
58/13 spec I dont see how Not using recokning is gonna give me better threat gen at all

Also some of you might look at me and GO YTF do you have 2 points into imp judgement and 3 points into heart of the crusader. My anwser for that is

Imp Judgment allows me to make an Very good Macro where Im using Holy Shiled Judge Slam basicly all at the same time Keeping my shield Slam to do the most possible dmg .

Heart of the Crusader IS THE HEAT I like it when for those groups when you dont have a ret pally It seams to Help you gen more threat and It gives the DPS that extra edge.
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:48 pm

thenNATEgoes wrote:Improved Hammer of Justice is a core prot talent, definitely worth it. Interrupt on a 30 sec CD and the ability to completely avoid damage for 6 sec on a single target. I could drop Improved Hammer of Justice and Guardians Favor to pick up Kings, but I prefer survivability. With the amount of mobs that can root in heroics, boy am I glad I have Guardians Favor.
Definetly not core tanking talents. If you need a trash mob prema stunned ora boss interupted, you bring a rogue or warrior. They do it much better we can even talented. If anything was a core prot talent it would be Kings. Can you really tell me that you have a trash pack so dangerous that you need a second stun from the tank within 30 seconds or it is too dangerous? A highly situational and weaker talented than rogue and warrior baseline talent is not a core ability.

Guardian's favor again is a situational talent. The only issue with roots is the inability to build threat on the target which one application of the untalented version allows me to build enough threat for any additional applications to not matter if the mob is even left alive for a second application. The only boss fight in recent memory were roots have played a large part was Vashj Phase 1. Even then the untalented version was enough to make me main tank for that fight.

Not every talent in the prot tree is intended for Prot PvE use. There are many PvP talents in our lower tree that should be ingored generally when it comes to tanking, including Imp HoJ and guardian's favor.
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