Avoidance dropping quick

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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:33 am

Blizzard basically say nothing, they give you the ingame details, and thats it.

Blizard never said your gear will be useful past level 70.

The whole uncrit / uncrush / theorcrafting thing is done by the community and works pretty much on supposition and trial and error.

Your gear needs to get effectively worse to make the game progress, yes a level 70 in 70 gear has it better than a level 80 in 70 gear, but thats part of the problem.

Naxx drops = 90+ ilevel
kara drops = 115 ilevel
tier 4 = 120
tier 5 = 133
season 2 = 136
season 3= 146
Tier 6 = 146
season 4 = 159
Tier 7.10 ~= 200 ilevel
Tier 7.25 ~= 213 ilevel
Top end Naxx ~= 226 ilevel

So a 30 point difference between the Tier 3 and Tier 4 gear (+ the stamina changes in TBC), and we see a 40 point is gap into Tier 7, in some ways the inflated rating is needed (the Blizzard forumla punishes high single stats, its why leather > plate was an issue as 4 stats > 3) to counter the huge stats (non linear stat-> cost), in others it inflates your effective health, etc. Ratings do their job of making the system linear, a T7 tank will be 40-50% avoidance, a T9-10 will likely be topping 60-70% again, but there won't be any stupid 102.4% avoidance tanks again (unless Blizz mess up).

Gear needs to deprecate to be worthwhile, else we would be in our highest ilevel gear, and the progression would be T3-> T4->T5->T6->T7 and basically skipping everything between, the depreciation means that there is some room for level 78+blues to be better than your T6, and that is what makes the game fair again, while you can beat the game in T6, it is not the best plan.
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Postby CKaz » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:33 am

Worldie wrote:Due to rating scaling and defense loss, you'll end up losing 2-3% of each stat per level. If you had 560 defense and 35% dodge (as i did at 70) you'll end up wearing same gear at around 490 defense and 20% dodge at 80.

Rating is the way to prevent people from using level 70 gear. Level 80 gear has craptons of defense for a reason.


Hmm per some posts here and this fact, I wonder if this might be true?
- Could it be possible a lower level tank with the same gear could actually do better tanking because of this?

Be kind of funny and sad at the same time, wouldn't it?
Might at least point even more to why low lvl 70s did so well vs 77+ elites
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:55 am

Depends on if the losses vs the gains are worth it (you become less hittable / more dodgy / more parryy with comparable level vs mobs). Also consider more health etc.

Likely the answer is yes, iff the gains vs loses are in favour, and the health deficit doesn't matter (tbh I think its true, because I take more damage now in instances than I did at the start because of the avoidance / uncrush loses I have endured).
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Postby dmok » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:06 am

CKaz wrote:Hmm per some posts here and this fact, I wonder if this might be true?
- Could it be possible a lower level tank with the same gear could actually do better tanking because of this?

Be kind of funny and sad at the same time, wouldn't it?
Might at least point even more to why low lvl 70s did so well vs 77+ elites

If you take uncrit out of the equation, yes this is true. However, as the mobs get higher you need more and more defense to become uncrit. So while a level 70 might have more dodge/block/parry in the same gear as a level 77, the level 77 has more access to more defense on gear, and should be switching it out to gain higher benefits from uncrit as well as the bonus "free" dodge/block/parry from it. (I consider it free, since it is not the primary reason you are stacking crit up to 540)
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Postby Janduin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:42 am

dmok wrote:
CKaz wrote:Hmm per some posts here and this fact, I wonder if this might be true?
- Could it be possible a lower level tank with the same gear could actually do better tanking because of this?

Be kind of funny and sad at the same time, wouldn't it?
Might at least point even more to why low lvl 70s did so well vs 77+


That is one of the reasons, yes. But while avoidance might be better for the lower level on paper, you have crits as dmok said, and also you wont be able to hit anything worth a damn so your threat will be terrible. Also keep in mind the level difference will make the avoidance worth less than on character sheets (not just the 2.4% difference for a 3 level difference) AND you will be able to be crushed by bosses and trash alike.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:44 am

Plus your armor will lose value(armor mitigation is level-based)
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Postby Targonis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:58 am

The biggest changes and losses I've seen from swapping is gem slots that would provide extra stam/avoidance. Some of my 70 pieces gemmed for stam have much more stam than the level 80 counterparts, or gemmed for avoidance provide a lot of dodge. In switching to blues with stam/str/def only my avoidance has taken a giant hit, especially my Block Rating, which is down to a whopping 9%... I've come to the conclusion that I need to find at least SOME avoidance to bring this up. Anyone done some research to find some easily attainable items that provide avoidance rating (Dodge/Parry/Block) and defense as level 80 starting gear? Everything I've seen is Defense only (for the most part).
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:03 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Plus your armor will lose value(armor mitigation is level-based)
Based on the level of the attacker not the defender.


Try this siteout for your true armor reduction against raid bosses.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:50 am

Majiben wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:Plus your armor will lose value(armor mitigation is level-based)
Based on the level of the attacker not the defender.


Try this siteout for your true armor reduction against raid bosses.
What he said.
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Postby CKaz » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:36 pm

Hey guys I just want to lock down this concept/what this suggests -

So actually it's not the level of the wearer who's influencing the effective armor reduction at all, just the attacker level?

Does all the same apply to avoidance, or no?

If so maybe it just looks like we're losing avoidance on our character sheets because it's assuming 'same level attacker'?

Just trying to work all of this out - thanks!
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Postby Kellann » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:41 pm

djlar wrote:
Worldie wrote:Due to rating scaling and defense loss, you'll end up losing 2-3% of each stat per level. If you had 560 defense and 35% dodge (as i did at 70) you'll end up wearing same gear at around 490 defense and 20% dodge at 80.

Rating is the way to prevent people from using level 70 gear. Level 80 gear has craptons of defense for a reason.


So, that's why I've been losing defense each time I ding?, but I can't find more defense gear fast enough, I'm barely 491, with new defense gear from Nexus and UK, even the shield from DEHTA..


You don't *need* to be uncrittable until you're 80 and trying something hard. Sure it's nice, but don't kill yourself trying to find temporary defense filler gear everytime you level.
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:02 pm

CKaz wrote:Hey guys I just want to lock down this concept/what this suggests -

So actually it's not the level of the wearer who's influencing the effective armor reduction at all, just the attacker level?

Does all the same apply to avoidance, or no?

If so maybe it just looks like we're losing avoidance on our character sheets because it's assuming 'same level attacker'?

Just trying to work all of this out - thanks!


Avoidance takes both the attacker's and defender's level into account.

For every level the attacker is higher than the defender, the defender's dodge, parry, chance to be missed, and block is reduced by .2%

For every level the attacker is lower than the defender, the defender's dodge, parry, chance to be missed, and block is increased by .2%


Assuming a naked, untalented paladin/warrior you would see the following results in true avoidance. Your character sheet says you have 5% block, parry, dodge and the mob have a 5% base chance to miss against equal level defenders.
Code: Select all
Attacker Level  Parry  Dodge  Block  Chance to be missed
     +3          4.4%   4.4%   4.4%       4.4%
     +2          4.6%   4.6%   4.6%       4.6%
     +1          4.8%   4.8%   4.8%       4.8%
      0          5%     5%     5%         5%
     -1          5.2%   5.2%   5.2%       5.2%
     -2          5.4%   5.4%   5.4%       5.4%
     -3          5.6%   5.6%   5.6%       5.6%
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