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Heroic's and 10 Man's in WOTLK a Joke?

Strats / Info that doesn't fit in a specific instance

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Postby morespam » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:37 am

Note to self, don't post analogies on forums anymore.

What I meant in the context of my post was that bob smith is a casual golfer tiger woods is a pro, tiger woods has dedicated more time, training, etc to playing golf and doing all the tournaments etc he does it to a higher level then bob smith.

For this he gets paid (epics, rewards, etc), do you think bob smith should get paid billions for playing casual golf on the weekends with his friends?
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:45 am

Mortehl wrote:Blizzard has stated its intent to release emblems of valor through -harder- heroic dungeons. There were only 12 released with wrath and there is intent to release much more content.


Mind sourcing this? I've heard absolutely nothing from Blizzard on the subject.
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Postby mclem » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:26 am

So, seeing a number of comments about how heroics vary widely in difficulty - anyone got a reasonable benchmark of a difficulty order? I was previously planning to roughly play through them again as they were in levelling order - from Nexus through to the L80s - but given the comments that suggest that Ahn'kahet is one that's particularly challenging, that might not be the best option.
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Postby Passionario » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:58 am

morespam wrote:Progression wise normal dungeons should gear you for 10 man raids and heroic dungeons should gear you for 25 mans

This way both sets of player get to see the content and both sets of players are happy.

The problem comes from casual players wanting the gear and rewards that the players that do the harder content get, this just makes no sense.

Keep in mind that, for non-tanks, the gear requirements for 10-man and 25-man Naxxramas are essentially the same (check the EJ forums if you don't believe this). Yes, bosses in the latter have more HP and throw more damage around, but once you divide it by the number of extra healers/damage dealers and take into account the broader range of raid buffs available in the 25-man version, the individual output requirements are surprisingly similar.

(In fact, the only reason why Naxx-25 has better rewards is its logistical difficulty, not a tactical or mechanical one. A similar situation exists with Arena formats - 5v5 provides more points per week because it is more difficult to organize or coordinate, not because it is somehow more 'hardcore' or 'elite' than 3v3)

And if gear requirements are the same, why should the sources for initial gear-up be different?
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Postby Chunes » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:47 am

well I don't know, i ran heroic UP last night and just got straight up served by the second boss.

I attribute it mostly to being critable and our healer being in blues (still had respectable stats and he raid healed all of BC so he was no scrub).

I snapped out the rest of the defense necessary to hit the crit cap (RiP 4pc t6 QQ) so we'll see if things are as easy as you guys are making it out to be tonight...
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:22 am

Actually, if anything the 25man instances should be easier, due to that logistical difficulty.

With a 10 man, assuming a 95% chance of any single player not messing up, you get approx 60% chance of no one messing up (0.95^10), while a 25 man would be 29%, so the ability to mess up must be higher in a 25 man to account for the fact that more people can make said mistake and reduce your chances of success (partially mitigated by the fact that your individual contribution is less 10% vs 4% roughly).

So 10 mans really can be more tightly tuned for no mistakes, while 25 mans need to be slightly more forgiving to offer the same difficulty of 1 person dying in a fire being problematic.
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Postby morespam » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:05 am

Passionario,

Thats the point, 25 mans should be harder and require better gearing to complete and maybe the bosses can do extra things (like they do in normal and heroic mode) to make it more of a challenge.

Also when I say more of a "challenge" I am referring to EVERYTHING that makes a bigger raid more of a challenge that means more coordination between players, the logistics, consumables, etc, etc.

Also my initial post was supposed to be "this is how I think it should be to make everyone happy" not a this is how it currently is.

I don't think anyone can argue that havening normal instances->10 mans for casuals/people don't want to dedicate so much time to the game and heroic instances ->25 mans for the player who have got more time for the game and want more of a challenge.

I am not belittling casual players, I have been on both sides of the fence. Pre-BC I was in the top guild on the server did every raid boss in the game, opened AQ40 gates, sever first every boss, raided 6 hours a night.

In BC I took a break and stayed away from the high end guilds cause I just didn't have the time, I did heroics, kara, and towards the end got into some 25s up to BT (befor 3.0) but not much.

I just think Blizzard should give us the option to do both, instead of making the game either "hardcore" or "casual", vanilla wow was hardcore to do anything, BC was still hardcore but a little easier on the casuals, LK looks like its gone a bit do far to the casual side of things, but then only time will tell.
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:15 am

morespam wrote:Thats the point, 25 mans should be harder and require better gearing to complete and maybe the bosses can do extra things (like they do in normal and heroic mode) to make it more of a challenge.


WHY?

It may have been that way in TBC and vanilla but there is no reason to contiune the trend in wotlk. Making 10 mans as hard as 25 mans in mechanics doesn't mean that 25 mans are being made easier than before, in fact 10 mans will likely be made harder than in TBC.
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Postby Soraki » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

so far from my experiences on heroics(easiset to hardest)

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Postby Kethion » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:46 pm

To me:
- Nexus and Violet hold are too easy to comprehend.
- Utgarde Pinnacle is so-so (third boss can be a pain but the Svala Sorrowgrave heroic achievement is pretty awesome)
- The Oculus and Ahn'kahet are easily the most difficult I have done so far
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Postby Ragingsoul » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:19 pm

I run all hc per day during the week end (yeah I know, we are crazy) with 2 healers, 1 holy pala and 1 resto druid. holy does 14k crit heals, resto hots everyone including me.

with an ench. shaman and ret pala, it's the perfect combination. no need to drink at all, we pull 2 packs at the time, easy.

If I can say 1 thing: loose your T6, it's worthless. sure you have some good avoidance with it, but you loose too much def, AP, BV and stam. Naxx is like kara. you need to stack more hp rather than more avoidance, it's way easier to heal. worry about avoidance later.

with the sword from naxx, and only running hc, I'm over the def cap, with 27.6k hp unbuffed, and a bit more than 1k bv ans 2.1k AP.

if you change for the blues instead of your T6, you will do a lot more dmg, and you can take 2 healers for hc, which makes them really easy.
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Postby Buffy » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:07 pm

Heroics definitely aren't catered to casual nubs. They are challenging. A couple are easier than the rest (H UK for example). If you went in there with a good group, then that's why you are having an easy time with it. Instead of bringing in your T6 buddies, try bringing in some scrubs with Season 1 gear on still. I guarantee you will find the experience a lot different. :P
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Postby deuce » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:18 pm

I think the game is too easy at the moment... Not only are the encounters easier, but gear is easier to aquire...

REP gear - Compare not the relative quality of Special issue leggings (Argent Crusade Honored) and time warden leggings (Keepers of time revered) but how easy they are to aquire... Argent crusade rep honored rep can be reached just with questing + dailies, no need to even enter a dungeon, let alone far rep like you would have had to do for Keepers of time...

Crafted BOE gear - Oathkeepers helm cost me about 1500g in material (retail auction house about 6 months after BC launched) and the crafter had to buy a random drop recipe AND have a primal nether (this took me a week to find someone with both).... Now every Blacksmith can make Titansteel helm for about 2500g in mats (2 weeks after launch)... While titansteel costs more in real gold; gold is so much easier to come by these days... 18 months ago, when many didnt have an epic mount, there were 6 dailies you could do and make about 75g a day from those... Now I am doing 12-15 easy and making at least twice that from dailies alone...

Quest - Long quest chains that dont require groups that reward items that are within the top 4 best pre epics = EZ mode... Nevermind that itemization seems better for everyone (or so I hear)...

Last night, I ran heroic old kingdom which seems to be a gear dependant heroic (3 DPS race fights) with a group that include 3 people who had dinged 80 within the last 2 days and had yet to run any heroics... While we didnt one shot every boss we did clear the instance with some ease... On the other end, Utgarde keep is retartedly easy...

I was T5/T6 and now am only wearing 6 pcs of BC gear...Good easy to aquire gear doesnt make encounters easy, but it shows how much easier things are these days...

As for the arguement "It will get harder with the patches"... That is BS... Too many people will be shocked after slacking for months when the first boss of 3.1 is "hard" compared to all the "easy" we got at launch... This is what happens when all attunments are gone... No one should be one shotting multiple bosses in naxx on there first time in... That is easy...
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Postby dmok » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:52 pm

deuce wrote:REP gear - Compare not the relative quality of Special issue leggings (Argent Crusade Honored) and time warden leggings (Keepers of time revered) but how easy they are to aquire... Argent crusade rep honored rep can be reached just with questing + dailies, no need to even enter a dungeon, let alone far rep like you would have had to do for Keepers of time....

You could get to revered with KoT in a single day. Do Durnhold, and BM about 3 times. Ding revered. Maybe 3 hours of your time. I am finding it takes much longer to get honoured with Argent Crusade, let alone revered for the helm enchant.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:30 pm

Majiben wrote:
morespam wrote:Thats the point, 25 mans should be harder and require better gearing to complete and maybe the bosses can do extra things (like they do in normal and heroic mode) to make it more of a challenge.

WHY?

It may have been that way in TBC and vanilla but there is no reason to contiune the trend in wotlk. Making 10 mans as hard as 25 mans in mechanics doesn't mean that 25 mans are being made easier than before, in fact 10 mans will likely be made harder than in TBC.

There are certain things that Blizzard have chosen as design goals for he 10-man stream that make it impossible to tune as tightly as the 25-man.

Basically, there's a design goal that the 10-man makeup is not utterly rigid, the base setup is:
• One tank
• Two healers
• Five DPS
• Two slots free.

One of the free slots is your "off tank", where the design is that the OT can be almost anything vaguely sensible. It can be another "full prot spec low DPS" tank. It can be a DPS-spec plate dude wearing his tanking gear. It can be a bestiality druid. Anyway, that OT has really variable DPS - might be a prot-spec pally (low DPS) or a Fury warrior (high DPS)

The second free slot is either a 3rd healer or another DPS.

So for the "single-tank" stuff in 10-mans, the DPS check is designed for five people who can be "hybrid DPS" (for Naxx: wearing blues) but you might have 6.5 to 7 DPS in-raid, mostly pure DPS.

The healing checks are designed to 2 healers, but you might have three. If a third is "mandatory" (4H-10) the 3rd healer spot can EASILY be covered off-spec.

The OT check is designed for "Fury warrior in off-spec tanking gear" but it might be a bear-spec-bear.

We took an "optimised" 10-man into Naxx: tankadin+bear, two good healers+SP for 4H, six (mostly pure) DPS. We tore the place up, one shot most of the instance with minimal epic gear. Take a group of 10 casuals, and a less optimised makeup, and it has to be doable.

What do I think of their design goals, and the outcome?

I goddamn LOVE it. I didn't enjoy the TBC gear-up process of:
• Farm normal mode endlessly getting a perfect blue set together.
• Farm heroic mode endlessly getting ready for Kara
• Wipe endlessly in first half of Kara gearing up for second half.
• OK, you can start raiding now.

In Wrath?
• Ding 80, run Heroics if you want.
• Craft some gear
• OK, raid now.

We're 11/15 Naxx-25 in two nights, we finally hit n actual gear check - both Thaddius and 4H weren't do-able last night, as people haven't geared up yet. Fri/Sat is 10-mans and heroics to gear people, and we'll go in DPS heavy for Thaddius especially (we kept wiping to frenzy... with four tanks and a couple of fresh DKs in quest gear).
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