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Avoidance dropping quick

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Postby Elderin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:54 am

Worldie wrote:Blizzard logic is "We cannot give a advantage to people who had T6 in TBC".
If they didn't introduce such punishing ratings (and that was introduced with TBC, not WotLK", you would with the same gear you wear at level 70 now, have better stats than a full T7 tank.


First, that cannot be correct. A fully T6 geared Paladin will not give you 540 defense, sufficient stamina, avoidance or attack power.

Keep in mind that the mobs are scaling. So, Dodge rating which would give you 30% dodge against a level 70 mob, will give you 29.4% dodge against a level 71 mob and so on. A similar concept would also be true for attack power, hit rating, defense, parry, block, et cetera.

I find it implausible that the T7 gear would have similar stats to the T6 gear.

Second, the who reason for running the T6 raid instances is to have an advantage over people who have T4 gear. Even before patch 3.0, my core raiders could destroy Karazhan in a couple hours and the only reason it would take that long was because of trash pulls.

Of course we have an advantage over the person who never set foot in Hyjal before WotLK. That's one of the major points of raiding.

In case you didn't play back then, in vanilla all the items used to say "increases chance to XXX by Y%". It got converted to rating because else items that were good at 60 would have been good at 70, and actually better than level 70 items.


I do remember that. I remember that you could create a low level rogue that could tank some high level instance because you could get his dodge percent up to 100%.

I have no problem with the existing rating system. I have a problem with them down grading my avoidance as I level up.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:02 pm

Elderin wrote:I have no problem with the existing rating system. I have a problem with them down grading my avoidance as I level up.

But that's the entire point of the rating system. If they didn't downgrade it as you leveled up, you'd still have 30% dodge at level 80. And when you upgraded to tier 7, you'd have 60% dodge.

So, you do have a problem with the rating system... but it's likely because you don't understand the need for it.

Don't worry, you're not going to have any problems with any instances as long as you take upgrades as they come. A crit here and there won't wipe you if you were in BT and Hyjal prior to 3.0.2.
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:15 pm

Elderin wrote:
Worldie wrote:Blizzard logic is "We cannot give a advantage to people who had T6 in TBC".
If they didn't introduce such punishing ratings (and that was introduced with TBC, not WotLK", you would with the same gear you wear at level 70 now, have better stats than a full T7 tank.


First, that cannot be correct. A fully T6 geared Paladin will not give you 540 defense, sufficient stamina, avoidance or attack power.

Keep in mind that the mobs are scaling. So, Dodge rating which would give you 30% dodge against a level 70 mob, will give you 29.4% dodge against a level 71 mob and so on. A similar concept would also be true for attack power, hit rating, defense, parry, block, et cetera.

I find it implausible that the T7 gear would have similar stats to the T6 gear.

Second, the who reason for running the T6 raid instances is to have an advantage over people who have T4 gear. Even before patch 3.0, my core raiders could destroy Karazhan in a couple hours and the only reason it would take that long was because of trash pulls.

Of course we have an advantage over the person who never set foot in Hyjal before WotLK. That's one of the major points of raiding.

In case you didn't play back then, in vanilla all the items used to say "increases chance to XXX by Y%". It got converted to rating because else items that were good at 60 would have been good at 70, and actually better than level 70 items.


I do remember that. I remember that you could create a low level rogue that could tank some high level instance because you could get his dodge percent up to 100%.

I have no problem with the existing rating system. I have a problem with them down grading my avoidance as I level up.


I think you missed worldie's point. If they didn't have punishing ratings then a T6 paladin would have enough defensive stats to rock T7 (As for offensive stats you do have a good point).

You can't retain your avoidance while leveling without making T6 gear better than T7.

While having ratings do different percents against different lvl mobs does have an appeal it does add a lot of work to the combat table. Currently they just add or subtract .2% from each outcome on the combat table.

It really isn't worth reworking the combat tables for what is arguably a niche situtation where you go back to fight old raid bosses 10-20 levels too high. The trash in those instances will hit you about 6% (12% in the 60 raids) less othen than the trash in a current raids.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:15 pm

Elderin wrote:
Worldie wrote:Blizzard logic is "We cannot give a advantage to people who had T6 in TBC".
If they didn't introduce such punishing ratings (and that was introduced with TBC, not WotLK", you would with the same gear you wear at level 70 now, have better stats than a full T7 tank.


First, that cannot be correct. A fully T6 geared Paladin will not give you 540 defense, sufficient stamina, avoidance or attack power.

My lvl 70 tankadin in t6(not even full, missing Illidan shield and BB's trinket, and Naj's boots) has 550 defense, 61% avoidance and 1300 attack power unbuffed. You sure about what you say?
Elderin wrote:Keep in mind that the mobs are scaling. So, Dodge rating which would give you 30% dodge against a level 70 mob, will give you 29.4% dodge against a level 71 mob and so on. A similar concept would also be true for attack power, hit rating, defense, parry, block, et cetera.

I find it implausible that the T7 gear would have similar stats to the T6 gear.

It will have much better ratings, because it has more budget, and average the same usefullness our lvl 70 gear has at 70.
Elderin wrote:Second, the who reason for running the T6 raid instances is to have an advantage over people who have T4 gear. Even before patch 3.0, my core raiders could destroy Karazhan in a couple hours and the only reason it would take that long was because of trash pulls.

Of course we have an advantage over the person who never set foot in Hyjal before WotLK. That's one of the major points of raiding.

In case you didn't play back then, in vanilla all the items used to say "increases chance to XXX by Y%". It got converted to rating because else items that were good at 60 would have been good at 70, and actually better than level 70 items.


I do remember that. I remember that you could create a low level rogue that could tank some high level instance because you could get his dodge percent up to 100%.

I have no problem with the existing rating system. I have a problem with them down grading my avoidance as I level up.
They have to, or level 80 gear will not spend it's stats at all. Who cares if your avoidance goes down? It'll go up again with level 80 gear of the same relative quality!(like low-end epics, high end epics)

Plus, if anyone claims it's a problem to tank while leveling, then all you can say is "shut up, heroics don't require t6 tanks to be tanked!", because leveling instances are THAT easy. They're designed to be tankable by any kind of plate/bear dpser who knows how to turn on the +threat buttons.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:08 pm

Worldie wrote:Blizzard logic is "We cannot give a advantage to people who had T6 in TBC".
If they didn't introduce such punishing ratings (and that was introduced with TBC, not WotLK", you would with the same gear you wear at level 70 now, have better stats than a full T7 tank.

In case you didn't play back then, in vanilla all the items used to say "increases chance to XXX by Y%". It got converted to rating because else items that were good at 60 would have been good at 70, and actually better than level 70 items.


Look up the old discussions about Bladefist's Breadth on Thottbot and you can actually see where it's changed to Crit Rating.
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Postby Elderin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:48 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:
Elderin wrote:
Worldie wrote:Blizzard logic is "We cannot give a advantage to people who had T6 in TBC".
If they didn't introduce such punishing ratings (and that was introduced with TBC, not WotLK", you would with the same gear you wear at level 70 now, have better stats than a full T7 tank.


First, that cannot be correct. A fully T6 geared Paladin will not give you 540 defense, sufficient stamina, avoidance or attack power.

My lvl 70 tankadin in t6(not even full, missing Illidan shield and BB's trinket, and Naj's boots) has 550 defense, 61% avoidance and 1300 attack power unbuffed. You sure about what you say?



I'd have to see your toon, but yes, I am sure. Here is the reason why. As I noted below, as you continue to level up, the mobs you fight also level up. So, having sufficient rating to get 30% dodge for a level 70 mob would give you 29.4% dodge on a level 71 mob. If you're fighting a boss mob (who would be level 83), your dodge would be 22.2%. This would also apply to parry and block.

In addition, your stamina in your T6 gear would also be unlikely to have the stamina that a T7 gear would have.

Elderin wrote:Keep in mind that the mobs are scaling. So, Dodge rating which would give you 30% dodge against a level 70 mob, will give you 29.4% dodge against a level 71 mob and so on. A similar concept would also be true for attack power, hit rating, defense, parry, block, et cetera.

I find it implausible that the T7 gear would have similar stats to the T6 gear.

It will have much better ratings, because it has more budget, and average the same usefullness our lvl 70 gear has at 70.
Elderin wrote:Second, the who reason for running the T6 raid instances is to have an advantage over people who have T4 gear. Even before patch 3.0, my core raiders could destroy Karazhan in a couple hours and the only reason it would take that long was because of trash pulls.

Of course we have an advantage over the person who never set foot in Hyjal before WotLK. That's one of the major points of raiding.

In case you didn't play back then, in vanilla all the items used to say "increases chance to XXX by Y%". It got converted to rating because else items that were good at 60 would have been good at 70, and actually better than level 70 items.


I do remember that. I remember that you could create a low level rogue that could tank some high level instance because you could get his dodge percent up to 100%.

I have no problem with the existing rating system. I have a problem with them down grading my avoidance as I level up.
They have to, or level 80 gear will not spend it's stats at all. Who cares if your avoidance goes down? It'll go up again with level 80 gear of the same relative quality!(like low-end epics, high end epics)

Plus, if anyone claims it's a problem to tank while leveling, then all you can say is "shut up, heroics don't require t6 tanks to be tanked!", because leveling instances are THAT easy. They're designed to be tankable by any kind of plate/bear dpser who knows how to turn on the +threat buttons.


I'm not having a particular problem tanking right now, but I am concerned that at level 80, I will.

Here's the problem in a nut shell. Essentially, a tank's avoidance is receiving a double whammy.

The first whammy is expected. As you level up, the mobs you fight become tougher thus requiring additional defense, dodge, parry, and block rating to mitigate the damage. Thus, 540 defense is required to be uncritable level 80.

The second whammy is unexpected and, in my opinion, unnecessary. It looks as though the coefficient Blizzard is using to convert your Defense Rating into Defense Skill increases as you level. Before WotLK, you needed 272 Defense Rating to get 490 Defense skill. Now, who knows?

It's definitely not 272. Currently, my 378 Defense Rating give me an additional 110 Defense Skill. That's a 0.291 coefficient. For a comparison, at level 70, the coefficient is 0.423.

If Blizzard is going to make this change, they need to explain it rather than doing a stealth nerf.
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Postby Spamdrew » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:01 pm

You realise that WotLK was completed by a bunch of people who were almost entirely using T6 gear right? This is with the system the way it is. If we moved to your system it would be even worse and those that raid would have a even larger advantage when it came to level 80 raiding than they already do.

Also Blizzard isn't responsible for your complete lack of understanding of how the game works. This system has been in place since BC. Everybody went through it last time ok I don't see what makes this time any different.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:16 pm

Elderin wrote:If Blizzard is going to make this change, they need to explain it rather than doing a stealth nerf.


If it was a stealth nerf, we wouldn't have known about needing the Defense Rating we know we need at Beta build 8795 or whatever it is that made Level 80 available.

They made this switch two years ago. The only thing stealthed right now is your knowledge of the history of the math model.
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Postby Elderin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:35 pm

Obrimos wrote:
Elderin wrote:If Blizzard is going to make this change, they need to explain it rather than doing a stealth nerf.


If it was a stealth nerf, we wouldn't have known about needing the Defense Rating we know we need at Beta build 8795 or whatever it is that made Level 80 available.

They made this switch two years ago. The only thing stealthed right now is your knowledge of the history of the math model.


Yah, got me there.

The stealth was the change in the coefficient.
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Postby Spamdrew » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:45 pm

Which isn't a stealth change. If you had looked up any rating on WoWWiki at any point you would have seen two different coefficient one for the rating at 60 and one for 70. If you look now you will find one for 80 as well. Just to repeat this has been in the game since just before BC you are just going to need to learn to deal with it.
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Postby mavfin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:32 pm

Elderin wrote:The stealth was the change in the coefficient.


Um, no, there's been discussion of this for MONTHS on tank forums. The 80 def rating-->def conversion (as well as the other ratings) has been known for months. The only stealth here is in your head.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:45 pm

Just for the sake of demonstrating the reason for which i shouldn't for any stupid reason be able to keep my T6 equipped if stats were % as they were before rather than ratings:
This screenshot had been taken the last day of 2.4.
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My stats the day after 3.0 were ~37% dodge, ~18% parry, and 535 def in that gear, still.
Notice items with 0 defense as
1) Pepe's cloak
2) Stalwart Protector ring
3) Moroes pocket watch
of which i got alternatives with defense (Slikk, Hyjal exhalted, Scarab of Displacement).

With those items on i were around 580 defense, with 20 less from the loss of anticipation...

You see why i shouldn't have been able to keep it as it was right?
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Postby Mialina » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:34 pm

After hitting 80 I HAD to change almost all my bt/swp gear to accomodate the defense needed to get uncrittable.
The thing is, people who have already cleared all available WotLK content did it with SWP gear, by regemming everything with defense/hit (afaik). The blues at 80 have absolutely no avoidance stat. It's all defense and stamina at start, which isn't a total disaster but a bit of avoidance wouldn't hurt.
The easiest solution (short of regemming) is doing heroics in blues (some are easier than others: Violet Hold (if you know all the boss tactics), Uthgarde Keep, etc) and getting BS and Emblem (new badges) epics.
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:40 pm

Defense is avoidance. Almost as good as defense (often better due to DR) and certainly better than parry. Adding avoidance at low levels of gear does cause harm as it forces future pieces to have more and more and eventually you get the whole sunwell raidance issue again.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:16 am

Elderin wrote:
Obrimos wrote:They made this switch two years ago. The only thing stealthed right now is your knowledge of the history of the math model.


Yah, got me there.

The stealth was the change in the coefficient.


To my knowledge Blizzard has never published coefficients for any of their ratings at any level ever since the concept was introduced in 2.0. All they've ever said is that as you level, it will take more rating to achieve the same effect. They have however made the system pretty transparent so anyone with the time or inclination could work it out.

Don't accuse Blizz of stealth changes because you can't be bothered to figure out how the game works.
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