Paladins and burst threat.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Paladins and burst threat.

Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:58 am

A thread over our advantage in Curator was over Avenging. I noted that paladins have the most reliable and effective burst threat option at this point: Avenging Wrath.. +30% to all damage for 20s and someone noted that warriors have recklessness which should be just as good for that fight, right?

Comparing the two:

AW lasts 5s longer, only causes us not to be able to use our bubble for a moment, a flat 30% across the board and has a 3min cooldown.

Recklessness requires a warrior to change stances (causing them to lose rage), gives 100% crit chance but can still miss, has a 30min cooldown which it shares with Shield Wall and increases damage taken by 30%

So in looking at it, you see a bigger downside to using Recklessness but does it offer the same returns?
Our Warrior will use the baseline stats of this calculator (changing mob reduction to 50% and using the cycle of Devastate, Devastate, Revenge, Shield Slam and 4x Heroic).

Our paladin will use the baseline outline in this thread

So we have as a baseline:
Paladin at ~426 TPS.
Warrior would be at ~643 TPS.

Warrior pops recklessness, paladin blows avenging wrath:
Paladin at ~553 TPS
Warrior at ~625 TPS

Wait.. the warrior is doing LESS threat? Yes. Because Recklessness requires him to go to beserker stance, which actually reduces his threat output by 30% (from 110% to 80%). So he does more damage but less threat per second and definitely less threat over all when compared to avenging wrath.

So no, recklessness is NOT comparable to AW in terms of our ability to burst threat out and is in all ways inferior. As of right now, in terms of ability to burst threat, paladins are the only ones able to do so.
Image
Girard
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Paladins and burst threat.

Postby sindorei » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:01 am

Girard wrote:A thread over our advantage in Curator was over Avenging. I noted that paladins have the most reliable and effective burst threat option at this point: Avenging Wrath.. +30% to all damage for 20s and someone noted that warriors have recklessness which should be just as good for that fight, right?

Comparing the two:

AW lasts 5s longer, only causes us not to be able to use our bubble for a moment, a flat 30% across the board and has a 3min cooldown.

Recklessness requires a warrior to change stances (causing them to lose rage), gives 100% crit chance but can still miss, has a 30min cooldown which it shares with Shield Wall and increases damage taken by 30%

So in looking at it, you see a bigger downside to using Recklessness but does it offer the same returns?
Our Warrior will use the baseline stats of this calculator (changing mob reduction to 50% and using the cycle of Devastate, Devastate, Revenge, Shield Slam and 4x Heroic).

Our paladin will use the baseline outline in this thread

So we have as a baseline:
Paladin at ~426 TPS.
Warrior would be at ~643 TPS.

Warrior pops recklessness, paladin blows avenging wrath:
Paladin at ~553 TPS
Warrior at ~625 TPS

Wait.. the warrior is doing LESS threat? Yes. Because Recklessness requires him to go to beserker stance, which actually reduces his threat output by 30% (from 110% to 80%). So he does more damage but less threat per second and definitely less threat over all when compared to avenging wrath.

So no, recklessness is NOT comparable to AW in terms of our ability to burst threat out and is in all ways inferior. As of right now, in terms of ability to burst threat, paladins are the only ones able to do so.


Paladin at ~553 TPS
Warrior at ~625 TPS
i can see the warrior is doing higher TPS intead of LESS
User avatar
sindorei
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:51 pm

Postby Lore » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:05 am

Warriors can pop Reck and go back to defensive stance, however using Reck for burst threat is pretty silly since it's on a shared half hour cooldown with Shield Wall. Also, we can use AW 2 or 3 times in that encounter.

Why is your paladin at such a low TPS as a base in your example?
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Re: Paladins and burst threat.

Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:06 am

Warrior changed from 643 TPS to 625 TPS. >.>

Lore wrote:Warriors can pop Reck and go back to defensive stance, however using Reck for burst threat is pretty silly since it's on a shared half hour cooldown with Shield Wall. Also, we can use AW 2 or 3 times in that encounter.

Why is your paladin at such a low TPS as a base in your example?


There is that, I'll concede. Though I could counter my example doesn't take into consideration that the warrior would hardly have the threat to use that many abilities since he would only have what, 25 rage?

As for the paladin stats.. because I didn't want to figure out the average +spelldamage a paladin would have after Kara compared to the warrior. Though to be honest, the warrior's AP is ridiculously high. Our MT only has about 700 AP =p
Image
Girard
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Postby Teah » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:25 am

Then you should compare to 0 spell damage and 0 AP. Sounds silly because I know it's impossible to get 0 AP.

But to compare.. you should compare on equal footing. o.O??

Edit: I'm guessing this was just supposed to show that warriors have nothing equal to our wings? :)
Teah
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:29 am

Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:29 am

Teah wrote:Then you should compare to 0 spell damage and 0 AP. Sounds silly because I know it's impossible to get 0 AP.

But to compare.. you should compare on equal footing. o.O??

I suppose I could scale back the AP until such a time that the base threat is equivalent >.>

Problem is, unlike us, the warrior tools for threat are inordinately more complex due to a wider variety of options. Just because I've made a base threat match with one cycle doesn't mean a different cycle could have more (or less) threat.
Image
Girard
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Postby Joanadark » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:35 am

Evocation starts

/battle shout
/dance to berserker
/recklessness
/dance to defensive
/rage pot

/"equip shield-use auto-blocker trinket-Shield Slam-deequip shield and replace with off-hand sword" macro
/dual-wield devestate spam

/bloodrage

soon as SS cooldown is up, repeat above macro

/heroic strike as rage permits.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Joanadark » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:40 am

more of my stuff can crit than your stuff can.
Consecration cant crit. Seal of Righteousness or Vengeance can't crit.
Only thing that crits that you'd be using is Judgement and AS.

you also wont be dealing any reactive damage during evocates.



Most of my stuff can crit. SS can crit, and has a hefty innate threat multiplier. Devestate can crit. Heroic Strike can crit and also has a pretty large innate threat multiplier of its damage.

Double damage crits stack with 400% damage multiplier during evocate in a pretty powerful way.

And as we said before, Curator doesn't hit very hard, and I always have Last Stand.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:41 am

Joanadark wrote:Evocation starts

/battle shout
/dance to berserker
/recklessness
/dance to defensive
/rage pot

/"equip shield-use auto-blocker trinket-Shield Slam-deequip shield and replace with off-hand sword" macro
/dual-wield devestate spam

/bloodrage

soon as SS cooldown is up, repeat above macro

/heroic strike as rage permits.

And on a 20s evocate, half of your 1337 damage just got eaten up by the GCD. =)

And a lot of your abilities have a -static- threat modifier. Ours does not. Hence the strength of AW vs Recklessness.
Image
Girard
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Postby Joanadark » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:53 am

don't confuse innate threat and innate threat multipliers.

Many abilities have both.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:54 am

Joanadark wrote:don't confuse innate threat and innate threat multipliers.

Many abilities have both.

Can you explain? O_o
Image
Girard
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Postby Whitewolf » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:14 pm

more of my stuff can crit than your stuff can.
Consecration cant crit. Seal of Righteousness or Vengeance can't crit.
Only thing that crits that you'd be using is Judgement and AS.

you also wont be dealing any reactive damage during evocates.



Most of my stuff can crit. SS can crit, and has a hefty innate threat multiplier. Devestate can crit. Heroic Strike can crit and also has a pretty large innate threat multiplier of its damage.

Double damage crits stack with 400% damage multiplier during evocate in a pretty powerful way.

And as we said before, Curator doesn't hit very hard, and I always have Last Stand.


Err. Maybe this is just me being stupid, but as a Protection Warrior - do you stack crit? Because you'd be the first I've ever seen....actually, i'm pretty sure you'd be the only one in the entire existence of WoW :). Relying on Crit chance from your talents is kind of...odd...to say the least. That's like saying "Well, I could pop AW and his AS and crit for #### and try to beat that threat gen".
Whitewolf
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:33 am

Postby Whitewolf » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:22 pm

Also, to my above post - I don't know ANYTHING about Protection Warriors talents, and re-reading it - Recklessness gives increased crit chance? That'd make more sense.

But, you're also adding in Rage potions to the situation. A Paladin with SotC, AW and Spammin SOR, Consecration, and popping his trinkets can also pop things to up his spell damage.

In all my time tanking - the only time a Protection Warrior destroys me on threat is if he vastly outgears me, or initial threat is on him, and I can't peel it off in the first 5-10 seconds. And even then it has to be a pretty good Warrior. *Shrugs*
Whitewolf
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:33 am

Postby Arcand » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:52 pm

Whitewolf wrote:Err. Maybe this is just me being stupid, but as a Protection Warrior - do you stack crit?


Even without stacking crit rating, warriors pick up a good bit of incidental agility on their gear which slowly pulls up their crit%. Also, it's easy and common to grab Cruelty from the first tier of Fury for an extra 5%, and if there's a feral druid in your group there's another 5%. If you happen to have a ret paladin along, you just hit 18% crit without trying.
Arcand
Moderator
 
Posts: 4525
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am

Postby Whitewolf » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:56 pm

Even without stacking crit rating, warriors pick up a good bit of incidental agility on their gear which slowly pulls up their crit%. Also, it's easy and common to grab Cruelty from the first tier of Fury for an extra 5%, and if there's a feral druid in your group there's another 5%. If you happen to have a ret paladin along, you just hit 18% crit without trying.


Touche!
As I said. I don't know anything about warrior talents. All I know is what I see...and I see me annihlating warriors on threat.
lol.
Whitewolf
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:33 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest