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Gear evolution 5-Man --> Heroic --> Karazhan --> 25

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Gear evolution 5-Man --> Heroic --> Karazhan --> 25

Postby roderick » Fri May 11, 2007 2:18 pm

First off, thanks so much to everyone who's active on these forums. I've learned a ton since finding them a few days ago. I've since respecc'd and am now tackling improving my gear. However, I'm a bit confused. I see a lot of discussion in Gestalt's guide which seems to be 25-man focused. I also see a lot of gear in Dreamcrusher's gear guide for pre-raiding which seems 25-man raid focused (i.e. not classic spell damage +STA +INT +DEF pally tank gear). Finally, I see lots of anecdotal postings that say for tanking 5-mans you don't really need anything special. Dreamcrusher seems to separate 5-man gear from raid gear but is a heroic run considered more like a 5-man or more like a raid from a gear requirements perspective?

My gear that I have leaves me neither uncrittable nor uncrushable (and from reading the forums might be too heavy in +spelldamage and clearly need some upgrades):

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... n=Roderick

So I'm in a set group with 2 mages, 1 hunter, 1 priest, and me. I'm not having trouble with aggro and once we figure out the boss strategy we're taking down every non-heroic 5 man we come across. Based on what I read on the forums this is what I'd expect given my gear.

So our group is nearly done with the non-heroics and will be moving into heroics, and perhaps Karazhan. I have no ambitions to go beyond that.

I'm concerned if I overspecialize in mitigation at the expense of mana or spelldamage the group will be slowed overall due to mana-regen and less overall DPS (for me and others).

My question is how should your gear evolve over time and at what point does being uncrittable and uncrushable become key?

Do heroics require uncrittable and uncrushable?

Does Karazhan?

Are folks swapping gear between trash and bosses to maximize speed? If so, are you using more traditional pally plate gear for trash?

Thanks so much, sorry my post was so long.

Roderick
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Postby Liadrin » Fri May 11, 2007 2:33 pm

Heroics mobs can't crush, but they can crit. You should definitely be uncrittable.

And if you want to tank bosses in kara, you should try to be uncrushable too. It's harder for tankadins, but it's possible to reach that with all pre-kara gear. I don't have the link to the post now, but it's probably in this forum somewhere.

Don't worry that much about spell damage or int for Kara, but you might want to get a bit more for heroics. Generally a spell damage sword like the Continuum Blade with a 40 spell damage enchant will suffice.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri May 11, 2007 10:22 pm

I always laugh at the delicious irony of a paladin tanking guide by someone named Dreamcrusher.
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Postby roderick » Sat May 12, 2007 12:02 am

You can't be crushed in a heroic? I though crushing blows was a function of level differential between you and the mob? Is it an ability unique to raid bosses?

I guess I'm curious if folks are swapping different gear for raiding vs. 5-mans. It seems like the raid gear people discuss sacrifices +int, +spelldamage, and others in favor of massive +sta, +dodge/block/parry.

If you have gear suitable for using on a raid boss is it always good to use it even on a 5-man boss? Or should I be building two sets of gear? One more pally-like for 5-mans and heroics and another more pure tanking for raids.

I'm also curious how much I should be neglecting +sta via gems and such in order to get to uncrittable / crushable. I'm up to 481 DEF now but my unbuffed health is only 8437.

Thanks for the great info.

-Roderick
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Postby Lorath » Sat May 12, 2007 1:05 am

You are correct about the level difference (any mob with melee attacks +3 your own level can crush you), however mobs in Heroics are capped at 72, and it's a fair assumption that you won't be tanking in or going to any Heroic at all pre-70.

Oh btw, I keep some 'lesser' tanking gear like Righteous for 5-mans, I don't need it atm but if they do nerf SA I fear I will need to downgrade in 5-mans, compared to say raid gear simply because I will negate too much damage and won't be able to regain mana from heals. So it looks like we'll be forced to make room for yet another f-ing set.
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Postby Barter » Sat May 12, 2007 10:53 am

wasn't it 5% for lvls 72?
i tanked magtheridon's trashs yesterday and they crushed me sometimes, they are lvl 72
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Postby Lorath » Sat May 12, 2007 12:18 pm

If you are absolutely certain about that... perhaps this can explain it.
When the attacking mob has 15 or more points of weapon skill above the player's base defense there is a chance of being struck by a crushing blow.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Crushing_Blow

I suppose those mobs could have extra stats, buffs, debuffs, special attacks etc that could make crushing blows a possibility even without being 3 levels higher than you. They would be the exception to the rule then. :)
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Postby Lore » Sat May 12, 2007 12:47 pm

Barter wrote:wasn't it 5% for lvls 72?
i tanked magtheridon's trashs yesterday and they crushed me sometimes, they are lvl 72


Crushing blows are limited to mobs +3 levels and higher, assuming your defense skill is maxed.

If you're referring to the 4 trash pulls before the Magtheridon fight, I'm not sure how you could have been crushed. If you're referring to the 5 adds in the Magtheridon fight (the controllers) they are Boss mobs.
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Postby Barter » Sat May 12, 2007 1:48 pm

Lore wrote:If you're referring to the 4 trash pulls before the Magtheridon fight, I'm not sure how you could have been crushed. If you're referring to the 5 adds in the Magtheridon fight (the controllers) they are Boss mobs.


I'm talking about the trash, I'm pretty sure they crushed me but well :roll:
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Postby Dorven » Wed May 30, 2007 4:03 pm

First off, it's clear that any pally tank should be building a spell damage/mp5 set and a mitigation set. (Although based on your Armory gear, looks like you know that.) That way we can pick and choose between items, have good +dmg and mp5 for quick trash clears, and still have the mitigation we need for the bosses.

Second: I'm not there yet, but the conclusion I drew from various posts is that Kara requires:

10k hp, unbuffed
490+ defense
120+ spell damage (aka a Contunuum Blade)
A good chunk of mitigation (aka nontrivial block/dodge/parry on top of the defense)

I'm assuming that's just to show up. I expect to clear it as MT I'll need to be uncrushable too.

So the target I set for myself for heroics is:
9000hp
490+ defense
120+ spell damage

I'm pretty close; in fact I'm pretty sure I'll be there by the time I get Revered with any of the important outlands factions.
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 30, 2007 4:28 pm

Dorven wrote:Kara requires:

... to be uncrushable too.


Absolutely, though you might want to gamble with a % or two. Consumables can really help you hit that mark.

So the target I set for myself for heroics is:
9000hp
490+ defense
120+ spell damage


You only need 485 Defense to be uncrittable in every non-raid instance.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed May 30, 2007 4:36 pm

Barter wrote:wasn't it 5% for lvls 72?
i tanked magtheridon's trashs yesterday and they crushed me sometimes, they are lvl 72


You sure is was the trash? The channelers are boss mobs, so they can crush.
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Postby Tybalt » Wed May 30, 2007 5:49 pm

Dorven wrote:So the target I set for myself for heroics is:
9000hp
490+ defense
120+ spell damage

I'm pretty close; in fact I'm pretty sure I'll be there by the time I get Revered with any of the important outlands factions.


9k unbuffed is going to be cutting it pretty close in most heroics. I'd be very hesitant to step foot in an heroic without at least 10k hp unbuffed. I've seen regular hits around 4.5k - 5k in heroics, which can get you two-shotted if you're not careful.

Not saying you can't do it, but things can get dicey.

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Postby Dreamcrusher » Thu May 31, 2007 11:00 am

I'm just going to chime in with my 2 copper.


For heroics (starting heroics, like Underbog, Mech, etc.) 485 defense and 10k health is fine. As long as you're using a continuum blade, your threat will be sufficient, although you can put on more spell damage (I do) to make it easier on your dps. My typical heroic gear is basically just max spelldmg/stamina without dropping under 485 defense. Avoidance is really not that big of an issue. A couple mobs (the bog lords in Ubog that grow a lot) can really benefit from higher avoidance/mitigation, but for the most part you should be fine with the baseline above.

For starting Karazhan (that is say... up to and including Curator) 490 defense and 10k unbuffed is a good starting point. As far as crushability goes, you can squeeze by without the full 102.4% avoidance. Later bosses (most notably Prince) will eat you alive if you're crushable (although if you get lucky 1-2% crushability is swingable, but that's like playing roulette with 9 other people's time...) being crushed in the first half of KZ will strain healer mana a little but ultimately, isn't a big deal - especially if you're potted out (iron/stoneshield, agility, defense, etc.)

But definitely by the time you're tanking prince you want to be uncrushable :)
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 11:34 am

There are definitely mobs in the game who cheat on the Crit/Crush rules.

Malicious Instructors in Shadow Labyrinth have a debuff that lets you get crit even though you're uncrittable.

Roar in Karazhan can crush you even while uncrushable.
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