Is the new PvE game going to be too easy?

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Postby Vanifae » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:36 am

Wait for Ulduar before we do name calling Naxx is not representative of what they have planned. They shoehorned old mechanics and bosses into a semi-new box.

Relax people.
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Postby Ryu » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:36 am

Majiben wrote:Did you know if you changed your chest enchant to +16 defense and your shield gem to a +15 stam you would gain about .25% more avoidance at the cost of 0-10 hp?

Or you could change your wrist enchant to +12 defense and your shield gem to a +15 stam to would gain about .1% more avoidance at the cost of 0hp?

Bwahahah sorry I just love poking around stam stackers gems and enchants looking for optimal alternatives.


Bracers dropped ages ago, the shield dropped very late, couldn't be arsed to switch stuff around because Sunwell was cleared anyway. If I'd have given a shit I would have put Str gems in every socket for the hell of it, since Sunwell can be tanked naked anyway, so there, kkthx

Majiben wrote:I could never understand stamina stackers.


Seeing as you haven't experienced any challenging content, hold that judgement.
You can understand that I've tanked Sunwell pretty damn good before any nerf on whatever boss with my philosophy on gems/enchants.

On-topic: What kind of timeline have they set out for new content patches, because the current content will be on farm in like a few weeks time for the hardcore guilds, little later for the more casual guilds.
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Postby Angelus » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:40 am

Proudfoot wrote:
Levantine wrote:If raiding content is so fucking easy that my guild steamrolls through it in a couple weeks, I highly doubt I'll bother.


I hope elitists do quit the game. Creating content that only 1-2% of the entire population will ever see is dumb. I'm all for Blizzards new raid design and making raids accessable.


There was nothing elitist about what Levantine said, you're sounding overly sensitive. Plenty of people don't like to play games that are too easy. Lookup the fall of Star Wars Galaxy.

Katamai wrote:Elitists calling scrubs incompetent.
Scrubs calling elitists no lifers.

Did i stray into official forums?

Oh and i just love people telling others to quit the game if they don't like x or y point of view.


No one in this thread has called anyone else in this thread a scrub or incompetent. Calling elitists no-lifers has only been implied.


P.S. Thanks Ryu for showing off that sig. Got me looking for where to make one like it.
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Postby Steve » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:16 pm

There are parallels to what's going on here in other parts of life. I have no idea how US centric the following analogy is going to be, so apologies to the Europeans.

Take your cable bill. I'm sure there are some people on this board who are just not that into sports. Yet when you go to pay your cable bill for the month, a significant part of the price of the bill is a result of what ESPN charges your cable company to carry their service.

If all these people who don't watch ESPN could avoid paying for ESPN, I'm sure they would. And the result would be ESPN would charge those of us who would still get it a higher price.

Sunwell is ESPN. The casuals have been subsidizing these zones for the hardcore for a while now and they're starting to realize it.

Enter 10 man versions of 25 man zones. Now casual players are willing to pay for ESPN. Essentially 10 man versions of 25 man content is what is going to save 25 man content.

The fact that 10 'scrubs' get to kill Arthas is what makes your 25 man game experience economically viable.

And ultimately that's what gives them the claim on having access to similar loot. It's the elephant in the room nobody likes to acknowledge. They're the ones paying for the instances to be created in the first place.
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Postby Angelus » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:33 pm

Steve wrote:Enter 10 man versions of 25 man zones. Now casual players are willing to pay for ESPN. Essentially 10 man versions of 25 man content is what is going to save 25 man content.

The fact that 10 'scrubs' get to kill Arthas is what makes your 25 man game experience economically viable.

And ultimately that's what gives them the claim on having access to similar loot. It's the elephant in the room nobody likes to acknowledge. They're the ones paying for the instances to be created in the first place.


Not buying that Steve. The game has been doing just fine. This would only make sense if WoW was starting to struggle because casuals are leaving the game.
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Postby Steve » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:47 pm

Angelus wrote:Not buying that Steve. The game has been doing just fine. This would only make sense if WoW was starting to struggle because casuals are leaving the game.


Don't need you to buy it. It's all there in the numbers. What % of players played through Sunwell? Everyone pays the same amount.

Now what % of developer resources are devoted to places like Sunwell? Is it a larger percentage than the number of players that played through Sunwell? I'm pretty sure it is. Though those are the terms under which these zones would need to be justified.

People that don't watch ESPN still pay an arm and a leg for it to this day. Perhaps economically viable is the wrong word. Perhaps I should have used the term 'economically justified.'

I don't usually engage in these discussions because there's no real hope of convincing anyone. This is all stuff nobody really wants to hear -- especially on forums like these.
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Postby Obrimos » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:16 pm

Angelus wrote:
Steve wrote:Enter 10 man versions of 25 man zones. Now casual players are willing to pay for ESPN. Essentially 10 man versions of 25 man content is what is going to save 25 man content.

The fact that 10 'scrubs' get to kill Arthas is what makes your 25 man game experience economically viable.

And ultimately that's what gives them the claim on having access to similar loot. It's the elephant in the room nobody likes to acknowledge. They're the ones paying for the instances to be created in the first place.


Not buying that Steve. The game has been doing just fine. This would only make sense if WoW was starting to struggle because casuals are leaving the game.


Casuals did start leaving the game. The US was down to one million subscribers, from four, for a year.
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Postby Ahms » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:30 pm

they want more people to see the content, that's really why they're making raid progress a little more 'realistic'. put yourselves in a designer's chair. you make this great zone or instance and find that only a handful of guilds get to see your work. that's really depressing from a creative standpoint, hence all the changes (and even changes to get more specs into raids to see that content)


they just have to find the right balance of challenge and fun
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Postby Angelus » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:20 pm

Obrimos wrote:
Casuals did start leaving the game. The US was down to one million subscribers, from four, for a year.


Any source on that, Obrimos? It's news to me.

Steve...it's true that not many people made it to Sunwell pre-patch. Unfortunately that was never in dispute.

But it still doesn't lead any credibility to your ESPN comparison. There is no indication that WoW had issues with Casuals leaving so they couldn't pay the bills for the 25-mans. Everyone pays the same amount of EVERY game, that doesn't mean everyone is entitled to see a game ending or extra features reserved for those that can complete a game on a "Hard" or "Extreme" difficulty.(I say this knowing that this idea is also premature since we haven't seen any raids past Naxx and Malygos, I already mentioned that in a previous post)

You shouldn't engage in discussions with the idea that it's pointless if you don't convince someone. Some people enjoy actually having a discussion and arguing their point(intelligently). Just because you don't convince those posting in the thread doesn't mean you don't convince the majority of people that browse without posting.

This is something you can't get on the official WoW forums because the place is full of idiots drunk on internet-anonymity.(what issues you could possibly have with these forums I'd rather not know, best place I know of). You start with you don't need me to buy it and end with saying you don't like these discussions because you can't convince everyone.

I also think Ahms is right, they did make the changes for more people to see the content. I don't debate that either, what I question is whether or not dumbing everything down is good or bad in the long run. I'd say no as people get bored of a game that's too easy(as Levantine also made clear in their post). Star Wars Galaxy is partially past evidence of this.
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:55 pm

Angelus your tone is hostile.


Also it does make sense for blizzard to design their content to be seen by the larger audience (10 mans) but allow for a challenge in variations of that same content (25 mans and these "hard" modes being talked about).

That model allows the Manhours/profit ratio to remain reasonable as opposed to what SWP pre 3.0 was (huge investment, few paying customers experiencing it).

Additionally I highly doubt the claim that blizzard went from 4 million subscribers one year to 1 million the next without a huge outcry. That is a huge slash in profits that couldn't be passed over.
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Postby Angelus » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:58 pm

Majiben wrote:Angelus your tone is hostile.



How so?
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Postby Arcand » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:59 pm

Angelus wrote:There is no indication that WoW had issues with Casuals leaving so they couldn't pay the bills for the 25-mans.


But we also don't know how many of those casuals would have stuck around if successive nerfs, direct and indirect, hadn't made the raid content more accessible.

Certainly every release of an endgame raid instance was accompanied by a chorus of "Great, another zone I'll never see, how about something for the other 98% of us?".
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Postby Steve » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:18 pm

Angelus wrote:Everyone pays the same amount of EVERY game, that doesn't mean everyone is entitled to see a game ending or extra features reserved for those that can complete a game on a "Hard" or "Extreme" difficulty.


While true, historically these features have been a pretty small part of the games in question. There's a difference between seeing an extra picture at the end of game (as in Devil May Cry) versus a raid zone.

Angelus wrote:You shouldn't engage in discussions with the idea that it's pointless if you don't convince someone. Some people enjoy actually having a discussion and arguing their point(intelligently). Just because you don't convince those posting in the thread doesn't mean you don't convince the majority of people that browse without posting.


It's the nature of the audience here. What percentage of the people that play World of Warcraft frequent websites like these? Hell, that's what makes the site worth visiting. It's the high signal to noise ratio.

But at the same time the people here have different biases. And the pointlessness in engaging in the discussion is that there are (usually) only two possible outcomes.

1. I'm saying crap you already know.
2. I'm saying crap you don't know but really don't want to hear.

Either way nobody really wants to hear it. So I guess it's not so much the fact that I cannot convince people so much as the fact that I don't think convincing you leaves you better off than you were before with your false belief.

When I say I don't need you to buy it it's partly just a statement that I don't really benefit from convincing anyone -- and I don't really think they benefit from being convinced by me either.

If you've ever read the prologue to Also Sprach Zarathustra, think of me as Zarathustra running from the saint in the forest.

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Postby Kellel » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:18 pm

Steve wrote:People that don't watch ESPN still pay an arm and a leg for it to this day. Perhaps economically viable is the wrong word. Perhaps I should have used the term 'economically justified.'


Amen Steve. Just know that there are lots of people trolling these forums that thank you for that articulate analogy and agree with it 100%.

Steve wrote:I don't usually engage in these discussions because there's no real hope of convincing anyone. This is all stuff nobody really wants to hear -- especially on forums like these.


lol, this quote just proves how wise Steve really is.
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Postby Kellel » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:33 pm

As far as the content goes, they are merely shifting the same curve that they've been using all this time. Content's difficulty is placed on a curve. The experience is either hard as hell, or easy as pie .. depending on your position on the curve as far as gear/experience goes. For the people who's goal is to get to the top of the curve as quick as possible ... if they aren't bitching about the difficulty level of the instances, then they will be bitching about the difficulty level of gearing up. Basically they will bitch about whatever is seemingly standing in their way of reaching the top.

I love that sig man: "Dear Blizzard, Paper is fine, but rock needs to be nerfed. Sincerely Scissors" <-- case and point.

As far as attitudes go....

I had an incident last night where I joined a pug that was to do a "quick badge run" of kara ... I joined for one last run through kara. I hop on vent and half the raid is 15 y/o's talking about how awesome they are. Fine by me, congrats you've earned the right to flaunt the gear you've spent a wow lifetime acquiring.

As we heading into Kara there are horde outside. two of the locks decide to stop and engage them despite the please from the rest of the raid to get in so we can start. Now they are wasting MY time and the time of everyone else in the raid. I send the guy a couple warnings asking him to please respect those of us in the raid that don't want to be up till 2am clearing this place. Again he ignores us. I get a couple of whispers from healers and dps telling me to just start.

We clear trash to auttemen in no time flat. I pull the boss, and the pvp'ers outside ignoring us start whining about how they won't get any badges. Excuse me? lol ... They start demanding on vent that we wipe the raid. Some of their guildies stop dps'ing ... no matter, we 3 man auttumen to the ground lol. The entire time, they would say "bah, it's just Kara .. who f***ing cares? I don't care .. bah." Well, there are 9 others in here with you that don't get to play 100 hours a week. Our wow time is precious .. and WE care. If you don't, make room for someone that does.

Now ... in hind sight I should have just left the raid when they were unwilling to respect the rest of it's members instead of downing the first boss and locking everyone to the instance. I'm not an elitist, or a scrub. I offer help to people that offer respect in exchange. I respect your attitude, not your mad lewts. I enjoy the multi-man content after all the appeal of the game is working together as a team.

The kind of people that were in last nights Kara pug are impossible to avoid ... but entirely possible to ignore. As Steve said, we can't expect people to change, however we can choose who we associate with. Avoid stooping to their level and lashing out verbally and simply be mindful of who you associate yourself with.
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