Changeable Specs

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:24 am

Majiben wrote:Tell that to people who spend hours repeating instances for a single drop only to have someone come along and take it without any word of warning. Heck that's the reason I ran kara with pugs for months, they got my services as an experienced solo tank doing a full clear and I get the pocket watch from moroes no ifs ands or buts. Hell did you ever hear how many runs it took to get the FotC to drop for people? Personally it was 28 runs and other have much higher.

5 man loot is always subject to the RNG and saying that a person should not be upset because the item was essentially stolen from them with no guarantee that they would ever gaze upon said item again simply because there is a chance that they might win in the future if they continue to pour copious amounts of time into the same boring instance? That's insane.

If you're doing tons of 5-man repetitions, run it with people you know or use ML. Or don't invite people who can actually wear and benefit from your drop. Or simply care less.
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Postby phaqueue » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:30 am

That's all well and good... but basically - complaining about people "ninja'ing" something from a PUG is ridiculous...

you have a couple of choices here...

Set loot rules (ie. only roll on main spec, etc) then use the in-game group loot system and pray that people follow them (and realize you have no viable form of repricussion if they don't)

Set loot rules, then use master looter on every pug you go with.

Dont' set loot rules and accept that "PUGs will be pugs" if you do this - you can either deal with it - or just leave when someone "ninja's"

of these... only 1 will guarantee that you get the gear you want... so if you want that gear specifically - then set it to master looter and you have the control to make sure people follow the rules...

it's just one of my pet peeves that people feel the need to complain about someone using the in-game group loot system and winning gear... you don't like it? use ML and take control - otherwise... stop complaining
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Postby phaqueue » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:35 am

Elsie wrote:If you're doing tons of 5-man repetitions, run it with people you know or use ML. Or don't invite people who can actually wear and benefit from your drop. Or simply care less.


or THIS

have you any idea how many times I ran heroic Terrace trying to get my tanking trinket on my warrior - when I was tanking it? only to have a DPS warrior, pally or druid take it?

and in PUGs - my theory is this - if I can/plan to use it - I will take it... I'm not in the pug to benefit you because chances are that I may never see you again... if you are a guildie - different story... but otherwise... I am putting out the same effort to run the same instance - therefore - I will roll on loot that I want/will use - and pass on other things... if you don't like it - don't run with me

if you don't have friends to run with - find some!
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:42 am

When you walk down the street with your childern you can expect there to be no one spewing forth porfanities.

Some of you seem to be saying that if you don't like your childern hearing profanities you should:
Not let them walk down the street
Only walk down the streets of gated communities
Or not care if they hear the bile.

You are allowed to be upset at ninjas, they are deviantes that sometimes are malicous and sometimes just ignorant. It is unreasonable to run your life around them. Running master loot in a PuG is often frowned upon exactly becuase of ninjas. Your group mates could very well fear that you only want the power to take any item you desire unopposed. Personally I prefer a self gonverning PuG to one run by a dictator.'

To those saying run with guild mates that is simply not fessable for the majority of runs. What reason do they have to spend hours upon hours to help you acquire a single item if there is no benifit to themselves? It is a form of freindship abuse to expect your guild mates to always run with you.
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Postby phaqueue » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:48 am

so - given your example and the way you've posted about ninja's - you're telling me that in the given example your best course of action to stop your kids from hearing the profanity is to go complain to someone completely uninvolved?

sounds like a perfectly reasonable and rational solution to me...

if you have a problem with the behavior then confront the person about it...

if you ahve a problem with someone walking down the street using profanity in front of your child - would you talk to the person about it? or would you go home... call your friend and complain about it then expect it to fix the issue?

how many times has coming to the forums... or even going to trade chat for that matter and complaining fixed the problem?

you know the definition of insanity? performing the same action repeatedly and expecting a different result...
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:56 am

So if I continued to add 1 to a number I would be insane to think that I would get a larger number each time?

Contrived and false statements aside, I do confront ninjas when I encounter them and often diswade them and encourage people to do the same. I do not go around making posts or looking for sympathy from the public. The mindset I take issue with is the one that says that not completely controling my enviroment I am the one at fualt when a deviate individual harms me.
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Postby phaqueue » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:05 am

Majiben wrote:So if I continued to add 1 to a number I would be insane to think that I would get a larger number each time?

Contrived and false statements aside, I do confront ninjas when I encounter them and often diswade them and encourage people to do the same. I do not go around making posts or looking for sympathy from the public. The mindset I take issue with is the one that says that not completely controling my enviroment I am the one at fualt when a deviate individual harms me.


first... in your example of adding 1... you would not be crazy to expect to get a larger number... you would be crazy to continue adding 1 to a number and expecting to get a number 2 higher each time... cause it will never happen...

second... I'm pretty sure you mean "deviant" individual...

third... to go back to your example of profanity... the best way to illustrate this is such...

you are walking down the street with your child... and someone walking past happens to be swearing up a storm... you go to the police and report this... what do you think they will do? since it is not illegal to swear in public... the answer is "they will do nothing"

now to translate this to wow - you go into an instance - and someone rolls on something they can use for offspec that you want for main spec... you report this to a GM... but since it was on group loot - it's not against any rules in the game... so there's nothing he can do...

seems like a perfect example to me...
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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:20 am

Majiben wrote:When you walk down the street with your children you can expect there to be no one spewing forth profanities.

Some of you seem to be saying that if you don't like your childern hearing profanities you should:
Not let them walk down the street
Only walk down the streets of gated communities
Or not care if they hear the bile.

You are allowed to be upset at ninjas, they are deviants that sometimes are malicious and sometimes just ignorant. It is unreasonable to run your life around them. Running master loot in a PuG is often frowned upon exactly because of ninjas. Your group mates could very well fear that you only want the power to take any item you desire unopposed. Personally I prefer a self governing PuG to one run by a dictator.'

To those saying run with guild mates that is simply not feasible for the majority of runs. What reason do they have to spend hours upon hours to help you acquire a single item if there is no benefit to themselves? It is a form of friendship abuse to expect your guild mates to always run with you.

Firstly, this forum has a spell check. I do not mean to insult, but merely relay to you that using such functions allows others to take them more seriously and reply more honestly.

Anyway, your comparison is invalid. You ignore the option to simply not allow others the option of using profanity while your child is around. This equates to the Master Loot option in WoW. Frankly, you also do not have to Master Loot the entire instance. Simply point out that you are running this over and over to obtain one item and, due to previous circumstances, will be put ML on that boss. No one should realistically be overly upset at this. While you may not prefer a "dictatorship" PuG, that is what groups are. The group leader has complete, sole voice in the decision of how that group is run. Your only true options are to comply with the leader's final decision or leave.

Running with guild mates may not be always possible. This is why you know your community. For instance, I know several non-guild members who would be trustworthy. At any rate, this is not a form of friendship abuse. That is, in and of itself, a false view. Friends do things for each other and help each other. Stating that there must be some reward besides helping a friend implies there is no real friendship or reciprocation. Finally, the instance also drops money, greens, other blues, faction championing reputation, etc. You may look there to your outside benefits.
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Postby phaqueue » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:24 am

Exactly my sentiments - if I really have an item I have been running for a while to get... I have people on my friend list and RL friends that I can ask for a favor to help me get it... why? because they know that I will do the same thing for them... cause that's how I am...

it is MY CHOICE to run with a pug... and as such I am taking the risk that I will not win the item I want...

deal with it
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:25 am

Actually swearing in public is illegal in many (if not most) places usually with varying conditionals. And yes you can be ticketed in most cases if there is a complaint. The thing is that this is a rarely enforced law (similar to jaywalking) and public swearing more of a social rule now similar to how tagging mobs to grief other people is a social rule first and a game rule second.

If you disliked my example for a repeated action then you will have to admit that your supposed definition for insanity does not hold true for the real world as you can never achieve the exact same conditionals. And if you look into superstates it becomes possible to have the same action result in two different outcomes.

Also attacking the spelling of someone with a learning disability is not a way to in your arguement.

Essentially Ninjas are wrong to do what they do and people have the right to be upset by it even if they could have taken heavy handed preemptive action to prevent such activity at the cost of group atmosphere and freedom.


EDIT: Deviate is a word and thus escapes spell checks. Worse yet it has the same roots as deviant giving it the "right feeling" when reread.
Last edited by majiben on Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Consecrator » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:27 am

I wasnt trying to start a giant war so i apologize for that. I was simply saying that when i run a 5 mans i roll on tank stuff, if a ret piece drops and noone needs it ill take it, but i would never take it if there was somone speced for it that could use it. Is a ninja going to ruin my life and make me stop playing wow forever? no. I was only saying that i hope we dont see more of it now with the duel spec. I spent till past exaulted trying to get the shoulders form Laj and wouldve been very very very unhappy if when they did drop a fury warrior took them, does it happen? of course, do we all like it? no, but its part of the game.

i made the initial post mostly because everyone keeps posting how great duel spec is and noone has posted any posible bad things. I am excited about the duel spec i was just throwing out a different side of it, thats all
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Postby phaqueue » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:29 am

Majiben wrote:Actually swearing in public is illegal in many (if not most) places usually with varying conditionals. And yes you can be ticketed in most cases if there is a complaint. The thing is that this is a rarely enforced law (similar to jaywalking) and public swearing more of a social rule now similar to how tagging mobs to grief other people is a social rule first and a game rule second.

If you disliked my example for a repeated action then you will have to admit that your supposed definition for insanity does not hold true for the real world as you can never achieve the exact same conditionals. And if you look into superstates it becomes possible to have the same action result in two different outcomes.

Also attacking the spelling of someone with a learning disability is not a way to in your arguement.

Essentially Ninjas are wrong to do what they do and people have the right to be upset by it even if they could have taken heavy handed preemptive action to prevent such activity at the cost of group atmosphere and freedom.


first... does this learning disability you possess stop you from pressing the spell check button?

second... yes - ninja'ing is wrong... but IMO - what you are talking about is not ninja'ing - they are rolling on something they can/will use - and you are complaining because... why exactly? oh right... they rolled on something to use it?

like I said before - either control it - or deal with it... seriously
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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:40 am

Majiben wrote:Actually swearing in public is illegal in many (if not most) places usually with varying conditionals. And yes you can be ticketed in most cases if there is a complaint. The thing is that this is a rarely enforced law (similar to jaywalking) and public swearing more of a social rule now similar to how tagging mobs to grief other people is a social rule first and a game rule second.

If you disliked my example for a repeated action then you will have to admit that your supposed definition for insanity does not hold true for the real world as you can never achieve the exact same conditionals. And if you look into superstates it becomes possible to have the same action result in two different outcomes.

Also attacking the spelling of someone with a learning disability is not a way to in your argument.

Essentially Ninjas are wrong to do what they do and people have the right to be upset by it even if they could have taken heavy handed preemptive action to prevent such activity at the cost of group atmosphere and freedom.


EDIT: Deviate is a word and thus escapes spell checks. Worse yet it has the same roots as deviant giving it the "right feeling" when reread.

Most of the people here reside in the U.S. where profanity is not inherently illegal. The most famous case of a canoeist in 1987 was convicted for such in Michigan, but the law was repealed in 2002 as violating the 1st Amendment. Even if you mean illegal as in against a statute, that doesn't necessarily hold as illegal once under court scrutiny. Also, I did not attack your spelling. I gave advice for a quick solution and you are choosing to take it offensively.

No one is stating that to "ninja" an item is ethical. However, excessive complaining about such a thing is very much playing the victim.
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Postby majiben » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:47 am

I was mostly replying to phaqueue concerning spelling.

Also even if it is not illegal swear in of of itself you can often be accused of distrubing the peace or other such measures.

What I was disturbed by is the mindset that the victims of ninjas were being blamed for being a victim.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:55 am

Majiben wrote:I was mostly replying to phaqueue concerning spelling.

Also even if it is not illegal swear in of of itself you can often be accused of distrubing the peace or other such measures.

What I was disturbed by is the mindset that the victims of ninjas were being blamed for being a victim.

Well, to an extent it is their fault. It's like blaming a driver when you're hit by a biker wearing black at night whom you jumped in front of when you could have prevented it, though that might mean waiting for a red light or walking with more aware friends.

While the biker could have worn brighter clothes and reflectors, and it's sad the person was hit, there were steps that could have been taken to prevent the incident.
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