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Is the new PvE game going to be too easy?

All things related to the expansion

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Postby mavfin » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:06 pm

gmf1 wrote:You cant tell me you dont think people who cant play more than 2-3 hours a day shouldnt eventaully get to fight arthas?


Oh, yes, gmf1, there are people that think that. Their self-esteem is so caught up with WoW that they can't stand to have anyone see the 'special' stuff they've seen. It makes them look less to themselves. It's pretty pathetic, really, how their lives are so wrapped around WoW.
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Postby Angelus » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:13 pm

I agree with you on that Mavfin, I've never understood the types of people that go so far as to look down on others for being casual.

Luckily the types of people that would actually call someone a scrub for being casual don't really browse this forum.

The only good thing about the official WoW forums is it makes avoiding the idiots pretty easy. They're like flies to honey in that place, keeps fansites like this a cleaner place.


Btw gmf1, people that play 2-3 hours a night are pretty "hardcore" in my opinion. Anyone that put that much time into the game during BC shouldn't have had much issue seeing content if that was their goal.
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Postby Mishakal » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:24 pm

From blizzard's point of view they will try and make the masses happy, so making it possible to see the content and only be a casual gamer would be high up the list, this doesnt mean they wont cater to the hard core it just wont be in the same fashion as with Sunwell (i.e. an instance that many didnt see pre wotlk or pre nerf).

I play an average amount of WoW, saw all the 25 man content pre Sunwell, I am looking forward to the XPAC and if Blizz has a way that everyone get to see the content but you can be rewarded by timed events etc then so be it ....

There are more casual, light-medium users than ever and the priorities are governed by who is paying the bill....

As for the topic, its wasnt ever to hard less Sunwell, but will maybe allow more progression via different paths - i.e 10 and 25 man formats.
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Postby mavfin » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:27 pm

Mishakal wrote:There are more casual, light-medium users than ever and the priorities are governed by who is paying the bill....


There's the important truth. It's easy to forget sometimes that this game is a business. A business interested in keeping the most people playing and paying subscriptions. It doesn't make them any more money if you play 1 hour 3 nights a week or if you play 12 hours a day, every day. They still get the same amount of money from you.

So, you see, other than having some hardcores around for the casuals to gape at, they don't *need* a ton of them, so, they're not going to cater to them excessively, especially in a game as mature as this one. I laugh when hardcore raiders bemoan Blizzard 'catering to the casuals'. Um, yeah, they do. It's good business. They do a pretty good balancing act with it, too.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:28 pm

At Blizzcon they explicitly stated that they did not want to make raids as difficult as Sunwell, so that only a very small percentage of the population would ever be able to see it.

Allow me to explain. Sunwell was not difficult in the sense that the bosses were, in general, particularly difficult. Sunwell was difficult because you -needed- mages and druids for Kalecgos. Sunwell was difficult because subpar DPS and group make ups could not down brutallus on progression. Sunwell was hard because you needed every consumable in the game, even old world consumables, to hit magic numbers. This includes tanks using 50+ ironshield potions in a single night. Sunwell was difficult because m'uru could basically RNG your raid to death.

Sunwell was difficult because your guild needed 4 decursers, 4 priests (and usually a disc priest outside the raid), 9 healers, 3(+1) paladins, 3 warlocks, 2 warriors, 1 druid, 2-3 shadow priests, 2-3 disc priests, 20-25 viable DPS classes, and 4 tanks. Also you generally wanted 4 resto shamans, 2 enhancement shamans, and 1 elemental didnt hurt with a variation of any 5 on the raid. Also, you couldn't have certain players if another of the similar class was present (ie, don't bring a fury warrior when you had an arms).

Sunwell bosses, in general, were not any harder in the fight mechanic sense than archimonde's "Don't stand in fire." Don't stand next to people on Kalecgos. Don't stand next to encapsulate. Don't stand in the raid with conflag. Don't stand on/near dark fiends. Don't stand outside the blue dragon shield. Yes, the DPS requirements were insane, and the group necessities were insane, but the actual fight raid coordination wasn't particularly new at a basic level.

Now, they've removed class necessities to a large degree except for 4 paladins, 2 shamans, 1 mage, and 1 priests bringing unique raid buffs. That is, to get every unique buff in the game the only particular classes you need are 4 paladin blessings, 2 shamans for bloodlust (10min CD, 5min debuff), mage for Arcane Intellect, and a disc priest for divine spirit. So no longer are most raid spots filled by the necessity of classes.

They've removed the harsh DPS class restrictions by generally equalizing the DPS of all specializations and removing potions to a large degree. Now you can actually afford to use a boomkin and such without suffering in raid optimization. You no longer need X class for Y debuff since most debuffs can be obtained through more than 1 class or a hunter pet. You no longer must have 2 shadow priests for mana regen since three specs can cause Replenishment, all paladins can judge wisdom safely, and spirit regen have been increased. No longer do rogues pull far ahead through chain haste pots. No longer do warlocks just decimate the charts.

Finally, a large portion only saw Sunwell (besides the above reasons) because BT was hard to get into for a long time. So most guilds didn't have the large farm time required to get Sunwell ready. This, combined with absurd class requirements and massive aoe damage with only 2 aoe heal spells, was a very harsh requirement on Sunwell. In fact, many of the guilds that did BT late did eventually start into Sunwell, but not before the lethargy set in for the game as the expansion was generally viewed as "over."

So would I expect fights with Sunwell difficulty as far as coordination and fight mechanics? yes, except for possibly RNG M'uru and Conflag-a-Raid Twins.
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:29 pm

We don't know anything till Ulduar.

Using current Naxx raid content will not prove or disprove anything.

When Ulduar/Tier 8 comes out then we see what the "real" raiding game will be like.
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Postby Jensaarai » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:24 pm

Elsie wrote:
At Blizzcon they explicitly stated that they did not want to make raids as difficult as Sunwell, so that only a very small percentage of the population would ever be able to see it.

Allow me to explain. Sunwell was not difficult in the sense that the bosses were, in general, particularly difficult. Sunwell was difficult because you -needed- mages and druids for Kalecgos. Sunwell was difficult because subpar DPS and group make ups could not down brutallus on progression. Sunwell was hard because you needed every consumable in the game, even old world consumables, to hit magic numbers. This includes tanks using 50+ ironshield potions in a single night. Sunwell was difficult because m'uru could basically RNG your raid to death.

Sunwell was difficult because your guild needed 4 decursers, 4 priests (and usually a disc priest outside the raid), 9 healers, 3(+1) paladins, 3 warlocks, 2 warriors, 1 druid, 2-3 shadow priests, 2-3 disc priests, 20-25 viable DPS classes, and 4 tanks. Also you generally wanted 4 resto shamans, 2 enhancement shamans, and 1 elemental didnt hurt with a variation of any 5 on the raid. Also, you couldn't have certain players if another of the similar class was present (ie, don't bring a fury warrior when you had an arms).

Sunwell bosses, in general, were not any harder in the fight mechanic sense than archimonde's "Don't stand in fire." Don't stand next to people on Kalecgos. Don't stand next to encapsulate. Don't stand in the raid with conflag. Don't stand on/near dark fiends. Don't stand outside the blue dragon shield. Yes, the DPS requirements were insane, and the group necessities were insane, but the actual fight raid coordination wasn't particularly new at a basic level.

Now, they've removed class necessities to a large degree except for 4 paladins, 2 shamans, 1 mage, and 1 priests bringing unique raid buffs. That is, to get every unique buff in the game the only particular classes you need are 4 paladin blessings, 2 shamans for bloodlust (10min CD, 5min debuff), mage for Arcane Intellect, and a disc priest for divine spirit. So no longer are most raid spots filled by the necessity of classes.

They've removed the harsh DPS class restrictions by generally equalizing the DPS of all specializations and removing potions to a large degree. Now you can actually afford to use a boomkin and such without suffering in raid optimization. You no longer need X class for Y debuff since most debuffs can be obtained through more than 1 class or a hunter pet. You no longer must have 2 shadow priests for mana regen since three specs can cause Replenishment, all paladins can judge wisdom safely, and spirit regen have been increased. No longer do rogues pull far ahead through chain haste pots. No longer do warlocks just decimate the charts.

Finally, a large portion only saw Sunwell (besides the above reasons) because BT was hard to get into for a long time. So most guilds didn't have the large farm time required to get Sunwell ready. This, combined with absurd class requirements and massive aoe damage with only 2 aoe heal spells, was a very harsh requirement on Sunwell. In fact, many of the guilds that did BT late did eventually start into Sunwell, but not before the lethargy set in for the game as the expansion was generally viewed as "over."

So would I expect fights with Sunwell difficulty as far as coordination and fight mechanics? yes, except for possibly RNG M'uru and Conflag-a-Raid Twins.


Good post. This reflects what happened to my guild quite well. We cleared BT rather late, around May 2008. Going into Sunwell we didn't always have the best raid setup, because raiders quit or whatnot, and then missing buffs or bringing in undergeared players or the time required to gear new people just killed us. It was not that the fight mechanics in Sunwell were that difficult, it was that we didn't have the right people with the right gear and the right buffs to get it done.

However, that is what I think a lot of people mean when they say "this instance was really hard;" not that the mechanics were really difficult (because, lets face it, not standing in fire...clicking on a portal...etc...are not that hard), but that it really required your raid team to be prepared in other ways for the fight, through consumables, buffs, raid makeup, etc. I don't know what taking away a lot of that will do (I personally think OS and Malygos, while cool, were pretty easy, 10 man at least (though Sartharion + adds looks to be challenging)), but I think in this respect, the game will forever seem a lot easier to players.

Hopefully my sick logic makes sense. Since my head is spinning now, I'm going to sleep.
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Postby Sober » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:31 am

given the amazing aptitude of people generally in the guild I am happy to say thank god for 10-mans, because I can see the content and when we all go do a 25-man noone should be 'so what do I do here?' that basically happened for all of T6 when I joined and maybe 15% of the people that raided read strats and stuff.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:45 am

@Elise: you have written an excellent post. I wrote several paragraphs responding to the snotty opening, but it's just not worthwhile.

Anyway, the more that I wrote, the more I came to agree with your analysis, so I'll cede the point. However, at Blizzcon I did not get the impression that the devs thought the stringent raid makeups were the big bottleneck -- at several points they discussed the difficulty curve of Sunwell without once bringing up stringent class requirements -- but if they interpreted "hard" = "requires exact raid make-ups" then a lot of the design decisions they've made follow naturally and obviously.

Fight mechanics that require raid-wide co-ordination hasn't changed much since Naxx. I wrote a long time ago that Naxx was the first raid instance where the entire raid had to have a clue, and some fights involved several smaller sub-fights that had to be executed correctly by everyone involved -- which is why so many guilds failed horribly. It's not like this game is very hard; I expect the scripting for encounters will get more elaborate as more generalized "raid capabilities" from homogenized class design will allow the designers to tune encounters more tightly, without having to worry about pre-3.0 raid syle stacking bloodlusts et al.

So hopefully encounters will continue to become more interesting. Hopefully they'll get away from fights where the RNG will just up and say, "hey, I think I'll fuck your entire raid. Who feels like some full frontal sodomy?" Random bullshit is not fun. It's just bullshit. Unfortunately, some would say it's also the only way to add an element of "unpredictability" and "excitement" and "danger" to an encounter.

But difficulty? No, I don't expect the same levels of difficulty to see content as the game has changed significantly. I do expect to see difficulty in some of the alternate achievements, limited solely by gear and performance requirements.

Also, I don't know that early SWP was that stringent. The first time we killed Brutallus, we did it with a suboptimal raid with time left to spare, about three weeks after our first Illidan kill. It took us five more weeks to beat Brutallus before the enrage when we "stacked" the raid with the classic Brutallus oriented makeup. I disagree with your laundry list of what guilds need to do SWP as our guild was doing well with unconventional setups, but obviously certain setups make for easier kills.
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Squishums » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:46 am

I hope they do more timed event things like za.

Casual players were able to see most if not all of it, but the timed event added the gear/flawlessness requirements for the hardcore players...and for the casuals to be be awed. Extremly difficult content is a selling point to casuals even if they never see/accomplish it because it just feels more "epic" knowing theres crazy tough stuff.

I actually hope whatever they do they never nerf things again....unless they obviously need it of course. Whatever difficultly they make things, I hope they stay that way. Its kind of a betrayal to the "epicness" of things to completely trivialize it.
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Postby Proudfoot » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:54 am

Levantine wrote:If raiding content is so fucking easy that my guild steamrolls through it in a couple weeks, I highly doubt I'll bother.


I hope elitists do quit the game. Creating content that only 1-2% of the entire population will ever see is dumb. I'm all for Blizzards new raid design and making raids accessable.
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Postby mazater » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:10 am

Proudfoot wrote:
Levantine wrote:If raiding content is so fucking easy that my guild steamrolls through it in a couple weeks, I highly doubt I'll bother.


I hope elitists do quit the game. Creating content that only 1-2% of the entire population will ever see is dumb. I'm all for Blizzards new raid design and making raids accessable.

This I agree with.

They even went so far that they reincarnated Naxxramas solely becouse they wanted more people to see it. (And becouse it was a part of Lore and Kel'thuzad when he travelled to Northrend to continue his studies and saw Naxxramas yaddayadda)

And by making raids more casual friendly, they get more money. \o/
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Postby Ryuusuke » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:43 am

Most people don't realice why specifically Wrath starting raids will be so easy.

Remember the "good old days" when most of the players were in AQ 40. Every Encounter was more like tank and spank than anything else. Few encounters required some strategy and that is where most guilds started to fail even when they got the required equipment.

With Naxx coming out, the very first real designed encounters where there. Even though most of them were still tank and spank with some situations where tanks were in more danger than usualy.
Though it's not like a lot of people saw this content!


Now BC shipped and likely every encounter required a real strategy. This was new to like 90% of all WoW-Gamers and adaption lasted quite a time.

With good players forming the more "elite-guilds" content became easier and easier and adaption to new fights became faster and faster.
With Sunwell on the surface a really great instance has been built. Every encounter required such a strong strategy and really good gear. Most encounters required 25 people in the raid in top noth. One person failing usualy meant, 24 others fail as well.

Though people adapted to it quite well and past nerf - as it was shown - the tactic is easy, just the encounters did too much damage.



SO, where are we now.
We're in a situation where very much players have experienced tactical encounters. Be it in 5 mans or in raids.
A new karazhan needed to be built and i think all of us agree that naxxramas is indeed a great choice.
Though the tactics for them are already known to a lot of people so there isn't so much "learn what they do and get everyone to understand"
now it's only "get everyone to understand" what they do

Furthermore blizz wants to introduce players into raiding easier than it previously was, so naxx became even easier.


However, there WILL be encounters for experienced hardcore raiders with "hard modes" and additional loot. So it won't be too easy for them

Blizz wants us ALL to experience raidcontent
This is why things get easier, though i dont see any problem in it whereas there are options to make encounters harder for the ones who want them to be harder =)


PS:
hope this isnt too much of a wall of text =)
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Postby Katamai » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:05 am

Elitists calling scrubs incompetent.
Scrubs calling elitists no lifers.

Did i stray into official forums?

Oh and i just love people telling others to quit the game if they don't like x or y point of view.
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Postby Proudfoot » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:00 am

Katamai wrote:Elitists calling scrubs incompetent.
Scrubs calling elitists no lifers.

Did i stray into official forums?

Oh and i just love people telling others to quit the game if they don't like x or y point of view.


To me "elitist" is more of an attitude then a playstyle. There are a lot of people with no life who I wouldn't consider elitists and there are plenty of elitists that "don't play a lot" but treat everyone like they are below them.

Also I never told anyone to quit, I simply said that I hope that more elitists quit (or change their attitude). The person quoted said that if raids were too easy that he wouldn't bother doing them. I guess I just don't understand this POV... raids should be fun, not frustrating. While I agree there should be some level of difficulty, many times it's way too high for your average player. If they want to reward higher difficulty there are ways of doing this, which I think they are doing now. ZA is a great example of an accessable yet difficult instance.
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