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(3.0.3.9183) WotLK TPS Weapons Spreadsheet

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby PsiVen » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:51 pm

The numbers at the beginning of beta looked like STR and SBV about equal, with AP at 60% of STR and SP at 40% of STR (all single target). So even in the beginning, AP has been much better than SP. The only reason SP has ever been considered at all, was that weapon DPS itself was so bad. So, weapons which sacrificed that stat (DPS) for Spell Power were great.

What changed? Well:

- HotR got buffed. This increased the value of white damage, causing weapons which sacrificed melee DPS for spell power.
- Coefficients got nerfed. A *lot*. ShoR was not the only ability to be butchered since beta began, the seals used to much much higher scaling.
- Spell Power coefficients in particular were nerfed, I guess. If my numbers for Holy Shield are off we will see it rise again a little bit, but generally it's worse off than it was.

SP weapons are still good, but there's no incentive anymore. There's nothing stopping a respecadin from using his healing weapon to tank with, but an equal-level melee weapon will be better.

Also there was a typo, SBV was too high.
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Postby majiben » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:12 pm

There was some talk about SoB proccing reckoning (so says worldi), assuming that's true could see the relative value of reckoning on a simple single target tank and spank boss (swing speed of 2.4 and say a 50% chance for a hit to connect). My rough math shows that reckoning has about a 60-65% chance of refreshing itself by the end of the charges. Now I'm not advocating SoB + reckoning tanking but I am curious of the results. Such a spec and play style would be reminiscent of old 0/40/21 spec where some survivability was sacraficed for higher tps. You seemed better equiped for working out the details of this than I am.
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Postby majiben » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:50 am

Seems that SoM does not proc reckoning. There is a slight chance that this may not apply to SoB but highly unlikely. A darn shame. I was looking forward to seeing where this went.
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Postby Est » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:32 am

Once again great info. But one thing I want to know is Reckoning going to be ok to pick up? Is the proc rate with SOB worth the health lost from it?
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Postby Vyreal » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:25 pm

PsiVen wrote:SP weapons are still good, but there's no incentive anymore. There's nothing stopping a respecadin from using his healing weapon to tank with, but an equal-level melee weapon will be better.

Interesting. It's a nice change, IMO.

But my question is, while we want melee weapons now, do we want fast ones or slow ones? Used to be, I'd get a fast one for SoR and for JotL/JoW, but does that still apply?

Thanks!
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:14 am

Vyreal wrote:
PsiVen wrote:SP weapons are still good, but there's no incentive anymore. There's nothing stopping a respecadin from using his healing weapon to tank with, but an equal-level melee weapon will be better.

Interesting. It's a nice change, IMO.

But my question is, while we want melee weapons now, do we want fast ones or slow ones? Used to be, I'd get a fast one for SoR and for JotL/JoW, but does that still apply?

Thanks!


Speed doesn't matter. HotR looks at DPS, not damage.
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Postby marsbubble » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:27 am

Vyreal wrote:
But my question is, while we want melee weapons now, do we want fast ones or slow ones? Used to be, I'd get a fast one for SoR and for JotL/JoW, but does that still apply?

Thanks!



I, for one, will be trying out Heartless w/SoB and reckoning. SoB is better with a slow weapon.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:09 am

Correct me if I'm wrong:

SoL/SoW/JoL/JoW -> Faster is better, as you get more procs.

HotR with SoR or SoB -> Slower is better, as you get larger procs on each HotR.

HotR with SoV -> Speed is irrelevant.

HotR with PPM effects (SoC, Mongoose, Crusader) -> Slower is better

SoV/SoR/SoB/Judgement -> Speed is irrelevant.

JoC/JoB -> Slower is better?

SoC -> Slower is better.

Reckoning -> Speed has unpredictable effects; slower or faster is not necessarily better and it cannot be determined broadly.

As for Reckoning: If you model it as a 10% proc on 2.0 speed hits that you take 50% of, you might expect an uptime around 20% which is a direct increase of your white damage by that much. 20% increase to 8% (white) vs. 15% increase to 25% (seal+judge) ends up at 1.6% for Reck and 3.75% (1.97% damage) for SotP. But if you artificially raise the proc rate of Reckoning (i.e., by introducing multiple mobs and only worrying about the first) its uptime shoots up.
Last edited by PsiVen on Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby majiben » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:23 am

You really should model reckoning for a mob swing speed of 2.4 as we now provide our slow as does every other tanking class.
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Breakdown of WotLK Tankadin Threat Stats

Postby cordelia » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:27 pm

Well, Psiven beat me to it. I actually had this post ready last week, but without the latest adjustments to the numbers, so I decided to wait until I came back from vacation. Since our numbers are slightly different, and this one comes with handy dandy graph lines, here's mine, as well.

Image

As you can see, and as confirmed in the other thread, TPS scales linearly with every stat and rating. The rankings by ItemValue point show us what threat stats are best allocated on our gear.

We should covet all gear with Str. We should value gear with AP and BV. We should avoid gear with Exp, Crit, and SP.

The most surprising observation to me was how much better Strength is. We knew that Strength was our best stat, but this shows that itemValue points spent on strength are 75% better than itemValue points spent on AP, the next best stat. In other words, 1 point of Strength provides the same amount of TPS as 3.5 AP. Equally as surprising is that Expertise is the worst threat stat for tankadins. This comes about surprisingly because the only two threat abilities that use expertise are the anemic HotR and our equally low TPS white damage hits along with its pathetic SoV 5-stack proc.

The TPS per Ratings point are provided for simple calculation, as we see rating points on gear, after itemValue points have already been distributed. You should use these if you're calculating the approximate TPS provided by a piece of gear. To put these ratings into very approximate whole numbers for easy mental calculation, see the following:

Code: Select all
4 Strength = 9  TPS
3 AP > 3 Hit > 3 BV = 2 TPS
2 Cri > 2 Agi > 2 Exp = 1 TPS
5 SP = 2 TPS
8 STA = 1 TPS


I will be using the TPS per ItemValue information in my tankadinPoints system to rate gear, and will post a full complete tankadinPoints listing of Wrath gear shortly.


Differences between Psiven's and mine:
(1) JoV is multiplied by both its SotP multiplier and the SoV SotP multiplier. I removed SoV multiplier.
(2) Psiven's spreadhseet multiplies BV from Str by 1.3, but not by 1.25(Div. Str and Kings). This change increases ShoR by ~1.1.
[Update: ShoR = uptime*1.9*1.45*1.3(SotT)*(Hit+Crit)/100*[((Str*1.25)/2)*1.3(Redoubt)+(Base SBV)]/6]

(3) I changed SoV proc so it's multiplied by 1.9 Righteous Fury mod.

[Update: All of the above resolved]

(4) I'm not using AS, nor wings, nor Reckoning yet.

(5) I assume Unleashed Rage or equivalent raid buff.

(6) I calculated the threat breakdown using a slightly different method than he did, so for some reason he comes out with BV > AP, and I come out with AP > BV. I simply calculated slope based off the graphs above, so I'm not sure why his threat breakdown numbers are slightly different[/b]
Last edited by cordelia on Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:56 pm

Good catch, I fixed JoV and SoV's proc and reuploaded. Base STR isn't multiplied because I assume it's included in the figure (based on 940 buffed STR in 80 gear). Most likely I had some rounding error in the itemization value for SBV, I don't think it's exactly the same as stamina.

One more thing: ShoR says it causes high threat again. Did anyone test it before Beta ended to see if it has the 20% higher threat modifier back?


uptime*1.9*1.45*1.3(SotT)


That's actually not SotT, that's a multiplier of 1.0 replacing the 1.2 I used when it was "high threat".

SotT is the one you marked as Redoubt. Redoubt is taken into account in the SBV itself.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:09 pm

PsiVen wrote:Good catch, I fixed JoV and SoV's proc and reuploaded. Base STR isn't multiplied because I assume it's included in the figure (based on 940 buffed STR in 80 gear). Most likely I had some rounding error in the itemization value for SBV, I don't think it's exactly the same as stamina.

One more thing: ShoR says it causes high threat again. Did anyone test it before Beta ended to see if it has the 20% higher threat modifier back?


uptime*1.9*1.45*1.3(SotT)


That's actually not SotT, that's a multiplier of 1.0 replacing the 1.2 I used when it was "high threat".

SotT is the one you marked as Redoubt. Redoubt is taken into account in the SBV itself.


Wait, huh?

I see what you did with the 1.25 multiplier, and I'll take that out. Redoubt should apply only to Str, since you assume that SBV is the talented amount, so I agree with multiplying Str by 1.3 only. I understand that much of the calculation.

However, SotT should be talented, so there should be an extra 1.3 modifier to the full value of ShoR. Oh, I see how what I posted was confusing; I left out a term. Let me repost the formula:

=uptime*1.45*1.9*1.3(from SotT)*(Hit + Crit)/100*[Str*1.3(from Redoubt) + baseSBV+520(from base ShoR damage)]/6
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:45 pm

But it is actually:

=uptime*1.43*1.9*1(from nothing)*(Hit + Crit)/100*[SBV(already including Redoubt)*1.3(from SotT)+520(from base ShoR damage, which includes SotT)]/6
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Postby cordelia » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:08 pm

Ahh, I didn't understand that your 520 base included SotT. So without SotT, base ShoR damage is 400. Why did you do it this way, instead of just listing 400, and multiplying the whole shebang by 1.3 for SotT?
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:27 am

Excellent question.

(:
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