Is the new PvE game going to be too easy?

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Is the new PvE game going to be too easy?

Postby Angelus » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:17 pm

So I read a post on the WoW forums about Naxx10 being even easier than Karazhan was.(some even comparing it to the joke that Karazhan is now)

With easier entry-level, and the removal of things like oils, professions-specific BoP gear, and attunements....Is there going to be any challenge left in the game? I've also read they don't plan on making any top-tier raids on the level of difficulty that Sunwell was.

I think we can agree that WoW was never the most difficult MMO, but at least there was some challenge in it. Anyone with beta experience in the raids that are past Naxx?
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Postby Elsie » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:21 pm

I think we can agree that WoW was never the most difficult MMO, but at least there was some challenge in it. Anyone with beta experience in the raids that are past Naxx?

Only Malygos and Naxx are out. Please don't buy into any of the "The Sky is falling!" random wow forum posts. 99.9% the posts there are worthless. The rest are in blue.

Farming for gear was never a challenge. Also, you did not read that about raids from a blue.
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Postby Steve » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:24 pm

It seems the most difficult aspects of the game will be achievement oriented.

Do Raid Zone X on heroic with 20 people. Kill Boss Y without Z occurring.

It makes some sense to do it this way from an economic standpoint. If the vast majority of the resources expended to create a raid zone are related to art and encounter design, achievement oriented content will still be cost effective to support if only 1% of your paying customers are seeing it.

I would not expect to see a Sunwell/Naxx type instance (by design) ever again. The cost of supporting those kinds of zones (in terms of art, design, and class balance) significantly outweighs the benefits.
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Postby Angelus » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:30 pm

Does seem premature then if we've only had access to two raids. While I've never fallen into the "sky is falling" posts. The posts about the game being dumbed down do have some backup to them.

Oh well...In worst case scenario, I believe all the new quests and storyline alone make for a worthwhile purchase of the xpac. Even if I don't stick around to play the PvE game.

Thanks for the input Elsie and Steve
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Postby Senador » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:33 pm

They can also make more "Hard Mode" kills result in better rewards. This already exists (For the one raid that I can't remember that you keep the drakes alive for, or the original way Twins worked).

This effectively adds two entirely new levels to a design in its challenge, 10 man, 10 man "Hard Mode," 25 man and 25 man "hard mode.

If the game can track that you did Naxx 10 with only 8 people for the achievement; having it so that if you trigger that condition you get an additional reward shouldn't be too hard, nor should it be too game breaking. People still see the content, it has more scaling and offers challenges to those that are willing to do it.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:34 pm

Angelus wrote:Does seem premature then if we've only had access to two raids. While I've never fallen into the "sky is falling" posts. The posts about the game being dumbed down do have some backup to them.


They only have backup if you can justify randomly whipping your own customers.

Making something that difficult to get into is, essentially, trying to market a grand punishment to someone who wants to sit down, press buttons, and see cool stuff. It's not financially feasable over the long term and "hardcore raiders", while not only being a vast minority, are usually a bunch of douches.

Moderatly difficult instances, like Kara pre-3.0 to Heroic-geared raiders or ZA pre-patch, are the best way to go over the long term. You don't need to be fantastic to see the zone. People who want twitchy-challange based gameplay should go back to RTSs and FPSs. The entire design of the WoW interface promotes a more laidback style.
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Postby Belloc » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:44 pm

Tier 7, the introductory tier, is supposed to be easy. Remember, we still have 3 more tiers of raids coming later on.
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Postby Zalaria » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:59 pm

Belloc wrote:Tier 7, the introductory tier, is supposed to be easy. Remember, we still have 3 more tiers of raids coming later on.


This. They want the first tier to be easier to get more people into it. It'll get harder later, though they have said it won't be Sunwell difficulty.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - It's time to roll the dice
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Postby Elsie » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:05 pm

I also imagine that they will make sunwell difficulty instances and nerf them over time so more people see the content.

Much the same way the entirety of tbc has been, but with more consistency, thought, and timing.
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Postby gmf1 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:27 pm

The hard instanced will be there for people who want them, like killing the bosses a curtain way ect, but why should casual players miss out?

I know they hardcore players will say if you cant raid 8 hours a day 7 days a week then gtfo, but those people are stupid and everyone should have a chance to complete the game even if they have a life :)

Im in a raiding guild atm and i will be raiding every night, but that hasnt always been possible as i had a job that didnt alow me to raid, it was out of my control, so i only saw past kara, gruuls and mags very late in the game, as i quit my job :)

Im sure there are plenty of other people who wanto come home jump onto wow for the 2-3 hours they have and get to see the game.
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Postby Angelus » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:04 pm

Have to disagree with you there gmf1. The people that claim all hardcore raiders raid 8 hours a night, 7 a week are just as bad as those that look down on others for not being hardcore.

I don't believe casual players are entitled to as much as those that do put the extra time/effort into their character/guild. Sure there is plenty for them, and WoW always has been casual friendly. But to say they are entitled to see just as much simply because they play isn't something I agree with. Video games have always been about rewarding those that are either skilled or dedicated.(though that was certainly more obvious back in the 8/16-bit era.)

Yeah it's unfortunate some people can't put as much time into a game, but that's pretty much how it is. As with most things, you get out of something what you put into it. Doesn't mean there isn't plenty of fun stuff for casuals to do.

and in saying this...I am certainly not a hardcore raider. There is tons of stuff I haven't seen in BC content. Unlike most however, the last patch that killed the difficulty hasn't been something I've seen as a way to see new content, it's something I've seen as killing the fun before it was necessary to do so(which would have been the actual xpac release)

While you might ask if I'm not a hardcore raider, why would I care? Because I liked having something difficult to look forward to. That's part of the reason I went Prot Paladin in the first place, there was that little bit extra bit of difficulty we had to work through.

Anways...I've enjoyed this thread so far, but really wasn't planning to get into this topic(and I know how easily this can degenerate into a flame war). Just wanted to know how difficulty was looking so far. I'm pretty encouraged to know now we've only seen Naxx and Malygos. I'll keep my hopes up for some wicked content afterwards.
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Postby Levantine » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:24 pm

gmf1 wrote:The hard instanced will be there for people who want them, like killing the bosses a curtain way ect, but why should casual players miss out?

I know they hardcore players will say if you cant raid 8 hours a day 7 days a week then gtfo, but those people are stupid and everyone should have a chance to complete the game even if they have a life :)

Im in a raiding guild atm and i will be raiding every night, but that hasnt always been possible as i had a job that didnt alow me to raid, it was out of my control, so i only saw past kara, gruuls and mags very late in the game, as i quit my job :)

Im sure there are plenty of other people who wanto come home jump onto wow for the 2-3 hours they have and get to see the game.


10 mans

If raiding content is so fucking easy that my guild steamrolls through it in a couple weeks, I highly doubt I'll bother.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:40 pm

Elsie wrote:I also imagine that they will make sunwell difficulty instances and nerf them over time so more people see the content.


At Blizzcon they explicitly stated that they did not want to make raids as difficult as Sunwell, so that only a very small percentage of the population would ever be able to see it.

So, yes, a bunch of scrubs will someday kill Arthas.

However, they are moving towards implementing more along the lines of a ZA Timed Run model, where doing things in a somewhat different manner (e.g., Malgyos with 4 adds) result in greater rewards (drake mount).

Personally, I like this model. I play the game to see content. I'm in a casual guild that raids 3 times a week, for 3 hours a night. We didn't start T6 content until February, and we downed KJ last week.

I'm looking forward to beating these instances, then having the option to beat them in "hard mode." Having additional goals to achieve will help keep the fights from being the same from week 1 to week 60 (or whenever the next expansion is due). I see this as a good thing.
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Postby gmf1 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:04 pm

I was only jking about the 8 hours a day thing, i understand that casual people shouldnt be clearing 25's mans easily thats why there is 10 mans.

You cant tell me you dont think people who cant play more than 2-3 hours a day shouldnt eventaully get to fight arthas?
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Postby mavfin » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:02 pm

As I understand it, the 'hard mode' kills give an extra piece of loot or two, depending on how 'hard mode' it is in some cases, so there are real rewards.

[this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's my opinion as a 39-year-old father of 4 who plays WoW]

As far as the hardcore vs casual thing: It's complete BS to call anyone who plays less than you a 'scrub', just because they have a life to live outside WoW and you don't. I only play 3 days a week myself, as I work 10 hours 4 days a week. Between work/sleep/travel/taking oldest daughter to school, there's not time for more than an hour to play in those days, if it all goes perfect.

I'm 'casual' in time spent, but I have plenty of skill. When I had the time to devote to raiding, I was an MT. So, people that automatically put down anyone who plays less than them, and says they don't 'deserve' to see the stuff you do, piss me off. I pay the same money that you do. Who are you to say that I don't 'deserve' to see the content in the game? Your e-peen? Get over yourself!

Back to 'scrub'. Are there stupid players? Yes. Are there unskilled, lazy players? Yes. Some of them are filler in the raid guilds. Some of them are reasons I'm *happy* I'm not looking at 25-man raiding anymore. But labeling people 'scrubs' because they can't put in as much time as you can is a problem with you, not them.
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