At old school raiders

Strats / Info that doesn't fit in a specific instance

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At old school raiders

Postby Zoltar » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:25 pm

With much of the BC content finished, or not worth starting at this point in the game(SWP) much of our guild is running some of the retro raids for achievements. Saturday night saw us knocking over AQ20 and then venturing into AQ40.

Although most of AQ20 could just be brute forced AQ40 actually required some strategy. We made it all the way to Twin Emperors before a couple of wipes saw people dropping out and needing to go to bed. I intend to assemble a raid to do the twins and C'thun before reset on Tuesday.

I have an idea of the basic strats, just wondering if anyone has any tips they could offer on completing these events.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:55 pm

MC can be entirely brute-forced. You just need 8 people with water to put out the runes.

BWL can be brute-forced other than the fact the tanks need Onyxia scale cloaks from about half way, and lots of people need them for Nef.

AQ-20 and ZG can be brute forced, or cleared normally by 3-5 people.

AQ-40 only requires a brain for Twins & C'thun. Before that, it's zergable. Viscidus needs a LOT of frost damage, otherwise easy.

bosskillers or wowwiki will have Twins/C'thun strats. Twins is the hard encounter. No amount of force will allow you to beat the encounter without four decent tanks - two caster/two physical.

C'thun amounts to:
• Run into the room all at once and spread out.
• Kill tentacles
• Don't stand in the red beam.

IE: There's a dead basic idiot check, then brute force him. Note that 20+ people dying to red beam is not likely to wipe you, he's probably doable with about 10 people.
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Postby Zoltar » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:42 pm

Knaughty wrote: Twins is the hard encounter. No amount of force will allow you to beat the encounter without four decent tanks - two caster/two physical.


The keeping them apart seems to be the trick. On the two attempts we had the caster boss seemed to be the hardest to keep in place. Timing the teleports seems to quite important.

Thanks for the tips though Knaughty :)
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:54 pm

Zoltar wrote:
Knaughty wrote: Twins is the hard encounter. No amount of force will allow you to beat the encounter without four decent tanks - two caster/two physical.


The keeping them apart seems to be the trick. On the two attempts we had the caster boss seemed to be the hardest to keep in place. Timing the teleports seems to quite important.

Thanks for the tips though Knaughty :)


Get Deadly "old mods" addon. Teleport is on a fixed CD, and is a 100% aggro wipe.

Short version? Two warlocks, destro specced, no DoTs. Physical is easy enough to pick up.

Also: Use SoR, not SoV.....
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Postby Zoltar » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:12 pm

Any reason that it has to be a lock tank for the caster boss? Is it possible to use a frost mage (no dot) or a hunter, or an ele shaman for that reason.

I watched one video where the tank simply backed out of the arcane blast range when the caster boss teleported and ate the casts from a distance then ran back in for the melee boss and taunted then backed out again when the caster appeared.

I assume the reason for SoR rather than SoV is so no DoTs are left on during the agro wipe?

I understand that the twins share the damage dealt. Is it best to split DPS across the room and have them focus on melee boss when he is on their side, or have DPS run back and forth across the room chasing the melee boss?

Thanks again :)
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:26 pm

Zoltar wrote:Any reason that it has to be a lock tank for the caster boss?

Searing pain.
Zoltar wrote:Is it possible to use a frost mage (no dot) or a hunter, or an ele shaman for that reason.

Yes, but harder.
Zoltar wrote:I watched one video where the tank simply backed out of the arcane blast range when the caster boss teleported and ate the casts from a distance then ran back in for the melee boss and taunted then backed out again when the caster appeared.

Until it aggros on a healer and runs across the room. Also: Caster boss almost kills me, and I have like 23k health.
Zoltar wrote:I assume the reason for SoR rather than SoV is so no DoTs are left on during the agro wipe?

Correct
Zoltar wrote:I understand that the twins share the damage dealt. Is it best to split DPS across the room and have them focus on melee boss when he is on their side, or have DPS run back and forth across the room chasing the melee boss?

Split. TP every 30 seconds = lots of running.

Back when timer was hard, people moved them to ether side of the entry stairs so DPS could swap back and forth. Problem at 80 is people not being tards, not the timer. Entry stair gives less room for tank/DPS error, recommend against it.
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Postby Zoltar » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:40 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Zoltar wrote:I watched one video where the tank simply backed out of the arcane blast range when the caster boss teleported and ate the casts from a distance then ran back in for the melee boss and taunted then backed out again when the caster appeared.

Until it aggros on a healer and runs across the room.


This make a whole lot of sense as to why they were so hard to keep apart on out late night/early morning attempts. So..... when the teleport happens healers need to stop healing and DPS stop DPSing ENTIRELY till the tanks have them again?

Thanks once again for the tips Knaughty. As it's such old content some of the more detailed strats/explanations are 'offline' or just plain hard to track down.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:07 pm

Zoltar wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
Zoltar wrote:I watched one video where the tank simply backed out of the arcane blast range when the caster boss teleported and ate the casts from a distance then ran back in for the melee boss and taunted then backed out again when the caster appeared.

Until it aggros on a healer and runs across the room.


This make a whole lot of sense as to why they were so hard to keep apart on out late night/early morning attempts. So..... when the teleport happens healers need to stop healing and DPS stop DPSing ENTIRELY till the tanks have them again?

Teleport = Hands of the goddamn keyboard if you aren't one of the tanks, or healing the clothie *mumbles* It's not super-complex you clowns...

Sorry, but last time I was yelling this at the PuGalicios raid I was tanking for so they could get their achievements. Third wipe in a row that the Twins swapped sides after TP because of Ignite/Deep Wounds/SoV/whatthefuckeveritwasyouputonthebossyoutard/FFSCorruptionIsADoT! I got the shits and made like the Argent Knight and bubblehearthed.
Thanks once again for the tips Knaughty. As it's such old content some of the more detailed strats/explanations are 'offline' or just plain hard to track down.

Welcome.
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Postby amh » Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:46 am

Do you know how long it takes before they reset after a wipe? We were waiting around for 20 minutes; bastards still didn´t come back. Slightly annoying :|
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:08 am

amh wrote:Do you know how long it takes before they reset after a wipe? We were waiting around for 20 minutes; bastards still didn´t come back. Slightly annoying :|


So long as <redactedBEEPredacted> people don't drag them out of the room and despawn them... ZERO SECONDS.

If they do... forever. 30 mins? an hour?
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Postby amh » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:27 am

Knaughty wrote: people don't drag them out of the room and despawn them...


.. exactly what happened! Wipe prevention, my arse -_-
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Postby Janduin » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:59 am

Two tips/clarifications from my recent experience.

Knaughty wrote:BWL can be brute-forced other than the fact the tanks need Onyxia scale cloaks from about half way, and lots of people need them for Nef.


Your two tanks will need cloaks. Nobody else will--you can have the rest of the raid hug the back walls of the caves and they will not get hit with Shadowflame when Nef lands. Typically we'd have a holy paladin run out with the cloak-equipped tank and bubble during the Shadowflame cast to heal the tank while the rest of the raid hid.

Knaughty wrote:No amount of force will allow you to beat the encounter without four decent tanks - two caster/two physical.


You can replace a caster/physical combo with a single paladin. Last time we did it I tanked one side, and we had a warrior/mage tank the other (I think it was a mage). This is because the melee boss is immune to all magic *except* Holy, so all our threat abilities work normally on him, and most of our threat remains intact on the magic twin as well as of course he is only immune to our melee damage. That said, with caster threat nerfs (with salv gone) and our somewhat reduced threat on the caster twin, I would recommend you only dps the melee twin and have casters kill bugs. Safer in my experience.
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Postby gwayne » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:03 am

I don't claim to know what was going on at twin emporers when I ran through AQ40 with a pug the other week. However we used 2 tanks (a warrior and me) for the encounter. I took one platform, he took the other and we tanked whichever was infront of us at the time. Those shadowbolts hurt but if you've got a decent sized raid then it's not hard to heal through. Though the knockback and slow is rather annoying :S
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:08 am

You can brute force twins healing eachother with a 40-man raid of 70s. But the folks that have the DPS to pull it off probably know how to do it the right way.

The reason you don't want a paladin tanking the caster twin is that he will explode+knockback+snare anyone in melee range. Since your casters will absolutely be nuking without prejudice and not waiting for you to get lousy amounts of aggro, you won't be tanking him long. Any other melee tank won't be able to hold aggro at all since he's still immune to physical damage last I checked.

Back in the day many guilds simply used a warrior on either side. This was made possible by the way each Twin would give the nearest person a large amount of threat, making it possible for healers not to pull. This bonus threat feature was (accidentally?) removed at some point around the 2.0 patch which seriously broke the teleport spell. They were eventually fixed to be killable again but the threat was never re-added, making clean kills nearly impossible due to Hydross-style threat sensitivity with a bunch of PuGs.

Thus the common result is:
Pull goes okay. Each tank has aggro.
Teleport. Melee twin runs off towards other tank because of a late DoT or something. Caster twin nukes random people and eventually settles on one person who was probably not the planned tank. Melee tank has control by now, possibly after wrestling him across the room just in time for the next teleport.
And so on.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:10 am

good luck tanking that melee twin..

The reason you don't want a paladin tanking the caster twin is that he will explode+knockback+snare anyone in melee range.


+your threat on both twins will suck big time.
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