Are they sorting our class??

[Macha]

As a quick example I'm a prot pally in BT/SWP gear... I solo tanked ZA yesterday and I was having mana issues..

How?
Solotank it and use some random plate class to soak lashes. Anybody with a shield can easily just stand there in dps gear and take it.

If you do it like that, your mana is totally fine. At trash just pull 2-3 groups like before.

[Talese]

I simply haven't been using holy shield while running heroics. I'm in t4/t5 gear with badge stuff.

[Crumplezone]

I apologise, I didn't want to start a massive debate about ZA.. I was merely wondering if they would bring us back to how we were after the patch that changed our tanking completely think it was 3.0, well maybe not there but closer than we are now.. regarding the mana/threat issue as I don't follow what GC has to say an awful lot.

The ZA thing was a now and then example, previously we had no worries with the mana to threat ratio, now that's not so much the case in my opinion, it gets eaten up very fast, yes there are mana pots and yes I had sanc up in the run..

The point is we took a giant leap forward and now it feels like we've been pulled back some of the way if you understand where I'm coming from, granted I've taken on board what Levantine had to say and its very valid, also the divine plea, but this is something we've been over already.

maybe approach it from a different point of view....

Do you guys think there's an issue with the amount of mana back we get now from our talents/skills/buffs etc... respective to the amount of threat we have to push out?. given your group is geared to your level??

[Zironic]

I simply haven't been using holy shield while running heroics. I'm in t4/t5 gear with badge stuff.

Isn't that counterproductive? With BoSanc up Holy shield pretty much pays for itself with the extra blocks.

[Embher]

I am really confused. I have T5/T6 gear ( which is less than yours i know) and i wasn't running oom in za. I use sanctuary, it gives as much as spiritual attunemtn 2% mana per dodge/parry/block, which is practically every hit out of misses and your spells are about 2% mana.

I think you forgot to put on sanctuary blessing.

-Embher

[Lave]

tanking raids you outgear by far is about one simple thing: gear for threat
fixes both - mana and threat problems

[Belloc]

I apologise, I didn't want to start a massive debate about ZA.. I was merely wondering if they would bring us back to how we were after the patch that changed our tanking completely think it was 3.0, well maybe not there but closer than we are now.. regarding the mana/threat issue as I don't follow what GC has to say an awful lot.

The ZA thing was a now and then example, previously we had no worries with the mana to threat ratio, now that's not so much the case in my opinion, it gets eaten up very fast, yes there are mana pots and yes I had sanc up in the run..

The point is we took a giant leap forward and now it feels like we've been pulled back some of the way if you understand where I'm coming from, granted I've taken on board what Levantine had to say and its very valid, also the divine plea, but this is something we've been over already.

maybe approach it from a different point of view....

Do you guys think there's an issue with the amount of mana back we get now from our talents/skills/buffs etc... respective to the amount of threat we have to push out?. given your group is geared to your level??

I feel that I consistently have more mana than I ever did in a comparable situation pre-3.0. I'm also putting out loads more threat. Our threat is certainly lower in 3.0.3 compared to 3.0.2, but it's still leaps and bounds ahead of where it was pre-patch. I can't speak for every player, but I'm seeing better threat out of us than any other class.

Having to drink every now and then is fine, as is having to use potions. Regardless, I think it's pretty much accepted that our mana/threat situation at the moment is, without a doubt, awesome.

[d503]

I simply haven't been using holy shield while running heroics. I'm in t4/t5 gear with badge stuff.

Isn't that counterproductive? With BoSanc up Holy shield pretty much pays for itself with the extra blocks.

This. I even HS when doing dailies...2 blocks easily pays for it...honestly, the dmg you're soaking from HS is less of a problem than all the dmg you're AVOIDING from having stacked dodge...

Take off your avoidance trinkets/pieces and get some threat stuff on, imo...

[marsbubble]

ditch some dodge rating, put on a green shield or something. esp. with the 2pc t6 bonus and the SA glyph damage = mana for you. your dodge is just too high for ZA.

[Bliss]

What you're saying is blatantly wrong. When we get 2% base mana returned for EVERY avoidance....WHY would you EVER drop avoidance?

If mana's an issue..don't judge. Use your Hammer as your main threat device while keeping HS up at all times. IF you still have enough mana, do consecrate. DPS can't often pull off even that small amount. The way our threat is now, we really don't have to go all out unless we're in a fully buffed raid environment.

[majiben]

What you're saying is blatantly wrong. When we get 2% base mana returned for EVERY avoidance....WHY would you EVER drop avoidance?

To increase the amount of the attack table block takes up. Blocks instead of avoidance means the same amount of BoS mana but more SA mana. I highly recommend a high block chance, low avoidance set for content you overgear.

[Bhall]

I seriously cant understand how can you go oom with BoSanc. It doesnt matter how much the mobs hit for, if you pull 2-3 melee mobs you wont have mana issues, because you get loads of mana per block, parry and dodge.

[Macha]

I think it's pretty much accepted that our mana/threat situation at the moment is, without a doubt, awesome.

On our own yes, compared to other tanks no.

[PsiVen]

Give a paladin BoS and he'll say "oh good, I won't have to drink as much".

Give a warrior BoS and he'll be too busy having an orgasm to reply.

Something a little off about that I think

[Crumplezone]

That's the whole debate tho Bliss, the rogues I was in with had warglaves etc... and were piling in there so I did have to hammer the threat if u get where I'm coming from, so by the end of a confrontation with a pack lets say I'd come out with about 15-25% mana left and then have to move on without stopping to another pack.

Things were dying at a fast rate, and we were moving at a fast pace we still didn't have this lopsided mana issue before, ok so I change gear out to worse gear with less strength and my threat still suffers cos the gear isn't as good but I'm getting mana back, do I just chug mana pots.....again... like last time??.
Blizz were supposed to be improving our situation I didn't think that's what they wanted for us, I believe I read somewhere that in TBC we weren't supposed/expected to MT, we had to Chug mana pots then, we're supposed to have moved on from that, at least I thought we were, maybe my mistake there.
Do I ask the dps to Slow down a bit? if so next time they'll just take a warrior in cos he can start it with a shockwave and crit shield slam and hey presto.... he's pwning ok the warrior would have to change gear out in order to make a lot of threat too but as long as he's got high BV it wouldn't matter he'd beable to sustain that threat rotation.
I agree with what Macha wrote.. against other tanks our situation doesn't feel AS good.

On the other hand, with Divine Plea, and a shield slam of our own It may get better I guess, seeing as things are geared for lvl 80, and I'm over geared for nerfed content...who knows.

In my opinion a little bit more mana back for us wouldn't hurt the way things are done.

This feels a bit too much like I'm QQing now and I don't like that so I'm going to say thanks all for your input I very much appreciate it.
If the dev's do decide to improve our situation I guess I'll see it here first .

Have fun and good luck guys

regards

Crump