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Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:15 pm

kurros wrote:My feeling is that you shouldn't need blessings for trash, and DPS that dies for stupid reasons *should* get punished by doing trash without buffs. I can't think of any trash where more than 1-2 people would die per pull in a way that couldn't be prevented if they played better.

Hard trash is hard. I don't think you're actually seen any?

We've had this chat before: Before 3.0, you only saw Tier-4 and a couple of bits of Tier-5, correct?

Black Temple trash and Sunwell trash, for progression guilds, were significant challenges at the time they were released.

Pre-nerf Sunwell, for guilds going in just after it was released, the trash was hard enough to required full consumables and 100% focus, or you wiped, and it was very unlikely you got through a robot or the six-pack pulls with zero deaths.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:16 pm

Knaughty wrote:
kurros wrote:Why do you make it so hard?

Holy paladin: kings on everyone
Prot paladin: wisdom on all casters, lesser sanctuary on self, sanctuary on non-casters

And then you make the dps warrior do battle shout.

Because the Holy Paladin doesn't have Kings at 80, and does have Imp Wisdom, and the prot pally doesn't.

And because Might > Shout.


Im somewhere in between you two - I think you're probably better off without buffing addons like pallypower, despite the risk of forgetting a 10 minute buff now and then on trash. Not doing the correct blessings on bosses, however, IS unforgivable.
But then again, I considered Illidan the pinnacle of achievement in TBC and didnt go sunwell by choice.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:22 pm

mirkodeluxe wrote:Yes.
I do understand the ramifications of screwing up buffs.
But I was rather objecting to the sweeping statement that if you dont buff flawlessly, or close to it, you dont get invited to raids.

It's not that you need to be perfect: It's that you've decided to deliberately do things the hard way, and then fucked it up.

If Kings isn't up, I'll just tell the pally who is supposed to be putting up Kings "rebuff kings" in the pally channel.

But if you:
(1) Make my job harder by making me verbally set your blessings rather than just click a few things
(2) Make your job harder by not having a mod
(3) Then fuck it up

I'm kicking you from the raid - not because you're stuffing up the Blessings, but because your attitude is a bad fit for my guild.
mirkodeluxe wrote:But we go about raiding in a more casual way, so theres not that much Min/maxing and raidkicking.

That's cool - it's worth noting that I'm somewhere between "moderately" and "very" hardcore, as is my guild.

We have pretty high expectations of our raiders - the guild is only 35-40 members. We did 4/6 Sunwell with 32 raiders. You're expected to have very good attendance and v. high levels of focus.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:26 pm

mirkodeluxe wrote:Im somewhere in between you two - I think you're probably better off without buffing addons like pallypower, despite the risk of forgetting a 10 minute buff now and then on trash. Not doing the correct blessings on bosses, however, IS unforgivable.
But then again, I considered Illidan the pinnacle of achievement in TBC and didnt go sunwell by choice.

In BT, it didn't matter much. I'm not going to panic about priests not having Kings, and you just give Salvation to the most reliable buffer.

But the difficulty jump for Sunwell was pretty stellar.

Trash on the way to Kalecgos was probably harder than most of the boss fights in Tier-6, other than Archi and last 3-4 bosses in BT. Healers missing Kings just die to AE and things like that. Healer down on a robot could lead to a wipe.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:36 pm

Fair enough. We simply go about business in a different way and maybe pallypower would have solved some issues regarding blessingsetup, now it will not matter for a while until we start raiding again.

But I certainly agree on sunwell trash. First time I tried Sunwell was post 3.0 nerfs and new talents and even then it was pretty hard.
Trash CAN certainly be difficult and not only in Sunwell, TK trashpacks could really be a hassle when you went there wearing T4 so I dont agree that you dont need to rebless on trash but it certainly makes less difference than on bosses.

So.. well. We are in agreement I guess :)
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Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:52 pm

God, I'd forgotten: Trash packs to Kael were a bit of a nightmare wearing your mixed T-4/T-5 gear, before the OP badge gear went in.

Thinking about it - Gruul trash back in blues + kara epics was no picnic either. That last "triple Ogre" pull before Gruul was hard core.

So yeah, there's hard trash before Sunwell, if you did it early enough.
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Postby Zoltar » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:16 pm

IMO Buffs are there for a reason and should be up the whole time.

The quicker you get through the trash the more attempts you get at learning a boss fight.

More health, mana & pewpew is a good thing :)
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Postby kurros » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:31 pm

Zoltar wrote:IMO Buffs are there for a reason and should be up the whole time.



It's all relative. What you say is true once your raid perfects it's trash clear. Until then, it's not really a factor.

I look at it as a sliding scale, 1-10, 10 being perfect, 1 being terrible.

1- raid wipes every trash attempt without even downing a mob
2- raid wipes every trash attempt, but can kill 1-2 of the trash mobs
3- raid wipes every trash attempt, but can *almost* wins
4- raid barely survives the trash with 3-4 players left alive
5- raid can do the trash, but many players die every attempt
6- raid can do the trash, several players die every attempt
7- raid can do the trash with only a few deaths
8- raid can do the trash with only 1-2 deaths
9- raid can do the trash without any deaths, but mistakes are made (heals not all interrupted, etc)
10- raid can do the pulls flawlessly

When you are at levels 1-5, buffs really aren't helping. Your raid is failing because you are doing it wrong, not because you lack X buff. Increasing the DPS of your rogues isn't going to magically teach them to interrupt the crucial spell, or save energy to DPS through the last 20% at max, or whatever the gimmick is that you are failing to figure out. If you are wiping that bad, it's not something a 2-3% increase in DPS is magically going to fix. In fact, there is even a point where your raid kinda "gets it", but is really not doing the pull right and only barely makes it through with every possible buff through brute force. In cases like that the buffs are almost hurting the raid, better off dropping the buffs and learning to do the pull correctly.

It's only after your raid reach level 8+ where buffs matter, because everyone knows the pulls for the most part and the only difference is that the buffs make your DPS a little bit better and you can clear trash with slightly less downtime.

I also feel that the failing players should be reminded that they failed, and refusing to hold up the raid and rebuff when only 2-5 people died is a great way to motivate them to NOT DIE in the future, and l2play. Is it really worth waiting an extra 10 seconds to rebuff your 3 worst players? All the surviving players are forced to sit there and wait while you buff up the dead. It's a huge waste of time. In the most successful guilds I was in, players who died on early trash were just told to run back and we didn't even stop to res, we would just move on and do more trash. Holding back your good players to buff up your failures leads to mediocre raids.

You might argue that blizzard actually balances some of the hardest trash such that you need every possible buff on every raid member to beat it, but I would respectfully disagree. I don't think any trash is tuned that tight. Besides that, I always fully rebuff after wipes, it just makes sense because it's the most efficient time to buff as everyone needs the buffs.

mirkodeluxe wrote:But I certainly agree on sunwell trash. First time I tried Sunwell was post 3.0 nerfs and new talents and even then it was pretty hard.


I saw that trash too. I went in with a pug, didn't expect much but we basically hit a brick wall on the trash packs with the scouts. This is *exactly* what I'm talking about above- the group wiped 3-4 times not because some DPS was missing might, but because we tried to do the pull completely wrong. We eventually figured out the gimmick, you need to have max range casters nuke down the scout basically instantly, and we got the pull. Of course at that point most of our healers had already left in frustration, can't blame them.



Knaughty wrote:Because the Holy Paladin doesn't have Kings at 80, and does have Imp Wisdom, and the prot pally doesn't.

And because Might > Shout.


Might is better than battle shout, arguably, but if you have the option of either getting wisdom + battle shout or just might alone, getting two buffs is almost always better than getting one. But yeah, it's pretty much obvious what buffs to do these days, it doesn't even require a discussion. If a paladin has kings, they do kings. If a paladin doesn't have kings, they do sanctuary. If a paladin has neither, they do wisdom on casters and perhaps might on melee if the warrior isn't using battle shout. You can usually figure out which buff you need to use without even typing a word in raid.


But anyway, this is waaay off topic. If you guys want to discuss this further maybe we should start a new thread.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:43 pm

This is serious OT. I could write a book on this bullshit, but let's not and say we did, okay?
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Postby elfjorc » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:03 am

Might is better than battle shout, arguably, but if you have the option of either getting wisdom + battle shout or just might alone, getting two buffs is almost always better than getting one. But yeah, it's pretty much obvious what buffs to do these days, it doesn't even require a discussion. If a paladin has kings, they do kings. If a paladin doesn't have kings, they do sanctuary. If a paladin has neither, they do wisdom on casters and perhaps might on melee if the warrior isn't using battle shout. You can usually figure out which buff you need to use without even typing a word in raid.


Running with a Boomkin, Resto Druids, Feral Druids, Elemental Shammies, Enhance Shammy, Resto Shammies, some Hunters that prefer Kings and some that prefer Might, some Priests that prefer Kings and some that prefer Wisdom, makes it much more of a nightmare. After Vashj tries way way back where we spent 15 minutes just getting buffs together, the right 10-min buffs on the right people, the guy who found out this mod called Pallypower instantly become everyone's new favorite raider.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:07 am

PsiVen wrote:This is serious OT. I could write a book on this bullshit, but let's not and say we did, okay?


QFT.

Not responding to further Blessing debate or changing the FAQ to cover it.
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Postby Thalani » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:19 am

The most recent 3.0.3 patch made Might slightly better than battle shout, so you can now safely buff with that noisy warrior in the group.
Finally, a case of Might makes right. ;)

Blessing of Might: Rank 8 points increased slightly to prevent from being overwritten by Battle Shout 8 that has a shorter duration (also applies to Greater Blessing of Might 3.)


WARNING: Buff rant incoming.

I am personally biased AGAINST Pallypower because it takes rational thought away. I can't count the number of times the other paladins would salv my tank(s). :( They wouldn't or couldn't figure out 10 minute buffs. Maybe it's just a matter of the mod being used poorly, but they seemed to use it just to keep track of who's doing kings...
I don't have a great memory, but I still managed to fully buff a 25-man raid with the buffs people wanted without overwriting the other buffs. It took me an extra minute or two to go through the whole list, but it took an extra 5 or more minutes of everybody arguing with the Pallypower users to get their buff changed (druids and paladins aren't all healers, thanks).

Deep breaths...

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Postby Ezikiel » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:50 am

which skill is best for threat per point now, SotP or Conviction?
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Postby Torquemada » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:03 pm

Between the two? Conviction. But I can't see a build that finishes getting what you need from Protection that gets more than 3 points into it. I'm ending up my essential points with 7 left over, which at this point are going into Benediction(Hooray for JoW nerfing) and Pursuit of Justice. I miss it and I can't max Conviction anyway, and I had having open talents that aren't maxed (3/5 Reckoning back in the day and 1/2 Imp Judgement being exceptions).

My original plan was to max SotP and put 2 points into DG, but I don't feel like spending 5 talent points to still have my seals still doing less than they did pre-nerf.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:58 pm

Ezikiel wrote:which skill is best for threat per point now, SotP or Conviction?

Psiven hasn't worked it out yet, as far as I know (and he's one of the few people who I'd just accept "better/worse" from without working it out myself).

It's worth noting that I'm expecting a prot/holy DPS boost at some point which will probably change the answer.

Conviction is bad (about 0.5% DPS per point) - if SotP is worse, I wouldn't bother getting either.
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