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A well played tankadin can out live a warrior in same gear

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Postby mirkodeluxe » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:29 am

To be fair, he makes a good point regardless of the facts either being scewed or made up.
No, selfhealing on brut is not an option and neither is selfhealing on any other raidboss for any extended period of time..

However, if you consider the whole spectrum of tanking then we certainly have ways of extending our survivability and surpassing warriors by far. But then Im talking 5-mans and in certain situations.. The last boss in Shattered halls is one example where my entire group has died at ~15% and I could keep on tanking.

But I really have to join the rest of the crowd and argue that you probably would lose more health while casting your heal than you would actually heal.. And regardless of whether you can crit FoL in tanking gear to 3K, 4,5K or 9 million K it is still not reliable enough to rely on.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:31 am

Prince...self heal...? No

His swing timer on phase three is 2 seconds. Invariably you take a hit while tanking him for every tiem you try to cast a heal... unless you completely drop holy shield(BAD) and your threat gen tools(Also BAD). In holy gear, you'd take too much damage. In prot gear you'd also take too much damage because of the 0-avoidance, but at least you'd take a couple extra hits to die.


Self healing is not meant to use in group play. Sorry gomefun but that idea doesn't work well enough to justify any kind of tank spec around it.
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:32 am

Basically to heal yourself you accept a 100-150% increase in damage taken. If you feel that is worth it by all means go for it but then how did you lose your healers in the first place? And by that train of thought do you honestly not have any other shamman, paladin, druid or priest of any spec in your raid?

Blow your LoH, Bubble wall, trinkets, SoL, JoL, lock candy, and pots before you consider healing yourself. Also use sacred shield once you get that talent.

EDIT: Mirkodeluxe the last boss in SH (not the free badge guy but the bladefist) hits like a pansy and the only danger he presents is killing off nontank classes and thus indirectly killing you.
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Postby SmurfZG » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:39 am

in prot spec and full healing gear i have about 1200 spell power and tbtl, my fol crits for 4k or so. Even with 12% more healing you'd have to have loads of spell power to get 4.5k flash crits, or use avenging wrath.

If you can flash between hits which might be possible on some bosses it could be good. But on prince... I doubt it would help survivability.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:43 am

SmurfZG wrote:in prot spec and full healing gear i have about 1200 spell power and tbtl, my fol crits for 4k or so. Even with 12% more healing you'd have to have loads of spell power to get 4.5k flash crits, or use avenging wrath.

If you can flash between hits which might be possible on some bosses it could be good. But on prince... I doubt it would help survivability.


Im pretty sure it doesnt, not by any consistency anyway.
I would never start casting any healing spell in a situation where my healers had died.. It would be-> Pocketwatch->SoL+JoL-> wait for health to drop -> Healing pot->HS->LoH->DP and maybe heal under it.

DP + heal might well be worth it, but not when taking full hits.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:46 am

I've killed prince before when everyone else was dead, and he was on 1%.

I bubbled when I got low, then did a Lay on hands just before it finished, then popped trinkets and hoped for the best!

He went down with me on 10% :)

Stopping to heal would have wiped us, though.
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Postby Corman » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:52 am

Umm, these guys are saying they have TWELVE HUNDRED SP in TANKING gear?!?!

Ok, I've survived over 30 seconds against Najentus without a healer (go go luck + bubblewall + LOH + pot + stone) and I had MASSIVE spell damage prior to the gear conversion (670 or 770 unbuffed, memory failing, and over 1k buffed with flask of blinding light) which is now down to 500 something and if i bothered to buff it, could get back up to 700 but why the freak would I bother?

HOW and WHY would you have 1250 SP in current gear? tanking gear?
I think my freaking HOLY gear may have something close to that... maybe.
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:08 am

Corman wrote:Umm, these guys are saying they have TWELVE HUNDRED SP in TANKING gear?!?!

Ok, I've survived over 30 seconds against Najentus without a healer (go go luck + bubblewall + LOH + pot + stone) and I had MASSIVE spell damage prior to the gear conversion (670 or 770 unbuffed, memory failing, and over 1k buffed with flask of blinding light) which is now down to 500 something and if i bothered to buff it, could get back up to 700 but why the freak would I bother?

HOW and WHY would you have 1250 SP in current gear? tanking gear?
I think my freaking HOLY gear may have something close to that... maybe.
Please go back and reread what was written. The number 1200 was for a prot spec with healing gear on. That said the OP has the abnormally high number of 800 SP in their tanking gear which leads me to believe they have gone far out of their way to get SP gear.
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Postby sanctifico » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:50 am

Good luck timing a flash of light to land between swings on Gorefiend, Mother, Council (Rogue), Illidan, Brutallus, Twins, or Kil'Jaeden (SR's).

Infact I'm certain that if you tried on any of the above you would take a crit to the face resulting in more damage than you could heal with a Flash of light. With raidbuffs it may be a 1.3second Fol, but it is still going to get you spanked when you include server lag.

Yes for SLOW hitting bosses its easily doable, but its a mana drain, and in raids/10mans/heroics you have healers to do it for you so why bother.

I know its shocking but healers are there to heal people.
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Postby Wakeman » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:19 am

Ok, let me help the OP, here is one way to make his strategy useful: :wink:

If the healer dies and your health is getting low -> Divine Shield (not Protection) -> Holy Light until full health -> if the dps are not all dead at this point, cancelaura and keep tanking!

I actually used this strategy once in the last MgT run with an enhancement shaman healer who was too eager to dps. :lol:
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Postby Macha » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:23 am

It's always special when a Paladin does it and everyone is OMG. For other classes, people don't even blink, it's expected that they can do it.
Warriors already surpass us in this in WOTLK, we're only better when we heal more than the boss hits(aka: Trashmobs).

And then there are deathknights.

Deathknights far, far, far surpass us in this. I've seen a DK solo a boss from 40% -> 0 in a 5man.

Deathstrike + Runetap + various panicbuttons + superhigh avoidance = DK is laughing at 5man crapbosses. This is so getting nerfed to hell.
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Postby majorwoo » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:02 am

While I also agree the OP is exaggerating/making up the claims I did get a 4.15k crit fol in my holy gear while prot spec'd, so maybe he was tanking in his holy gear? :twisted:
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Postby Splug » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:09 am

Content is in a state of sufficient nerfage that I would not be at all suprised to hear someone went without heals from 30% on for Prince. I was in a ZA last night where the warrior survived tanking Hallazi (or whatever the lynx boss' name was) off vampiric embrace; I was trying to solo heal on my shaman and ended up dead 5 seconds into the fight.

In other news, you need more than 12.5k armor to soak saber lashes with 12k health. Mail armor just doesn't cut it, though I think if I'd gotten ancestral fortitude up before the pull I'd have been ok...

On an up note, evidently if you can punch a hole through his head fast enough on the merged phases, the lynx boss will only saber lash once the entire fight.

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Postby Pizbit » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:43 am

I raid as a resto shaman.
If I see a tank casting a heal while in a situation he's going to be hit*, I'm hearthing, I'm not going to wait until combat ends, I'll hearth** right then and there.


*phase changes, OOC all that stuff he can if he wants but still silly
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Postby lusisia » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:49 am

gomefun2 wrote:
Maihes wrote:Come on someone making their first post blatantly stating they healed last 30% cant be trolling at all....

That said Prince lasts all of what 1.5-2 minutes total?

Also you would AVOID more damage then you can heal, I would also like to know how you are gettin 4.5k FoLs...


I'm honestly not trying to troll. I just think there is perhaps a way to play a pally tank that could put us above warriors. Perhaps to abuse a mechanic that most people dont use. I block for 738 damage (unbuff). I would have to be hit about 4 times in order for healing myself with a crit flash heal to be useless. most bosses will not attack 4 times in 1.5 seconds as far as I'm aware, but I could be wrong.


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